http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07r0ITAut8I&sns=em

Doubleheaded mainline steam going 80mph...my god, what I wouldn't give to see two K4's strutting their stuff like that!

We do have scenes like that. Back in 2007 the SP 4449 and UP 844 put on a pretty good show rampaging around Washington. Double headed super-powered Northerns is something you will only find in the United States.

Taylor

Several reasons why this is more common in the UK than in the States;

1) In the USA, litigation has replaced baseball as the national pastime. The result is that insurance is higher, which makes ticket prices higher, and also gives executives of private railroad companies the reason to see a video like that and think "ye gods what horrific risk exposure!"

1a) Without getting into any form of political discussion here, please, IF something were to happen on that train--from a cinder in an eye to a catastrophic derailment--they have this thing called National Health Service. "Socialized medicine" has its drawbacks, but one plus is that it creates one less thing to panic about, in the minds of "risk managers."

2) Inasmuch as the British rail system, like most of the European Union save France, has been denationalized, the actual rail infrastructure is still under the ownership and control of the national government under the Network Rail banner and administration. The franchises issued to operators typically mandate a form of "open access" whereas if someone otherwise abiding by the rules wants to run/charter a train, they have to allow it. This is not to say that anyone can run anything, but it definitely does away with the likes of the fiasco whereas CSX refused Western Maryland Scenic 734 the chance to go ten miles over their main to another line for a week. Rather than the heritage/whatever operator being at the mercy of the tracks' owner/operator, the franchise would have to show just cause why the heritage loco/car couldn't operate--because, after all, the heritage operator is, indeed, "part owner" of the track, in a sense. (A parallel here would be if Amtrak were required to sell you a "turnkey" charter, including insurance, on any main line as long as you met all other conditions. Of course, we can conjure up multiple reasons, from excepted track to shortage of equipment to the freight railroads saying "no way," why that doesn't happen here.)

3) Because of the above two, the market and demand for such trains is there. Think of the Southern/NS excursions. When they were running, the folks in the area sort of took it for granted, but it also allowed them the "what can we do THIS year?" mentality. Imagine a succession of steamers taking on the challenge of Cajon Pass, Horse Shoe Curve, or Sand Patch, and fans plotting the time and performance of different steamers on the routes. Imagine 261 and train taking a different "tour" every year--New England, Arkansas, Montana, Grand Canyon....

Incidentally, the video posted showed a GWR 4-6-0 and a LNER-derived BR-design 4-6-2 doubleheaded--which is about as wild a sight in UK terms as a PRR Mountain doubleheading a NYC Hudson (provided both had survived0.......

Here are some more practical differences:

a) Britain has an "open access" rail network. They already have a system where private operators can operate and sell passenger services anywhere on the network after following well established contract rules. If the rules are followed, the operator can not be refused for subjective reasons (whim of ceo, latest quarterly financial results, management takeover, retirement of supporters).

b) most of these trips are operating on lines with active, dense passenger services. Passenger stations exist. Safety facilities and procedures along the line already exist. Other than the motive power, these trains are "just another train". In contrast, our trips are major special events that require elaborate safety planning and risk.

c) demand: these trips are more frequent and thus more predictable from an operations point of view. Sufficient customer demand exists to support these trips as a recurring business instead of occasional unique events.

d) available capacity. The passenger routes in Britain have sufficient infrastructure to support these additional trips without disrupting other services. The U.S. rail network is much sparser (more single track, fewer sidings, less dense signaling) and the addition of a train trip is more challenging from a dispatching point of view.

If you dig deeper, the differences between U.S. and UK are very practical and I see less evidence for various conspiracies.

Here's the bottom line: over the past 50 years or so, corporate executives, including railroaders, have evolved from engineers and operating men who worked their way up through the ranks, to lawyers and financial gurus moving the pieces around to enhance earnings. They have little connection to the past and correspondingly minimal affection or appreciation for institutional history.

My advice? Buy a plane ticket.

There is another big problem with mainline steam excusions in the USA: most railroads now insist that all cars in the train comply with Amtrak Tier-1 standards, which are for passenger cars operating up to 125mph. This eliminated all historic passenger cars in good condition as they operated though the 1990s.

Compliance with Amtrak Tier-1 requires massive tear-down down to bare underbody, usually removal of the lower part of the side sheets and end sheets removed to inspect for corrosion, scrapping the wheelsets (even roller-bearing wheelsets!) unless they're new enough to have hub-stamped instead of rim-stamped wheels, complete truck tear-down and rebuild, installation of bulletproof (but expensive and easily scratched) non-openable double-pane polycarbonate (i.e. Lexan) windows, HEP power cables sufficient to transmit 1000HP+ worth of high voltage power (major $$$ for the 12 parallel 100' lengths of 4/0 copper wire these days), etc, etc.

To put this in perspective: Golden Gate Railraod Museum has spent more than $100k in materials (carpet, paint, steel, welding rod, etc.), equipment (new Stadco diesel generator, new air conditioning compressor), and some purchased services (primarily upholstery work) restoring heavyweight lounge car S.P. 2979 to its Art Deco glory. This included rebuilding the collision posts at both ends, and replacing all the steel in the lower half of the vestibule end. See http://ggrm.org/Collection_view.aspx?id=8. The $100k+ restoration cost is being earned back from ticket sales on Niles Canyon Railway "Train of Lights" and parlor-car service on special trains with 4-6-2 S.P. 2472. But an additional ~$200k would be required to bring it up to Amtrak Tier-1 standards, and that just isn't worth it.

Result of the Amtrak Tier-1 requirement is that mainline excusion trains are limited to modern Amtrak cars - hermetically sealed and not a historic experience - and privately-owned Amtrak-upgraded cars (lounge cars mostly), which are very nice but typically have low seating capacity. It pretty much eliminates the family trade, and makes it hard to sell tickets except to die-hard railfans with $$. The situation would be very different if we could operate cars restored to pre-1990 standards.

- Doug Debs

Your biggest difficulty would be in finding a railroad in the US that looks like the English system, and getting the equipment shipped here and qualified to operate under our regulatory system. It would be far easier to simply buy tickets to what few American equipped mainline steam excursions might happen here, and close your eyes and think of England..........but why you would rather make English scenes happen here than simply go there and truly enjoy the entire experience I can't imagine.

dave

I don't believe he means, "Why can't we get two English steamers running in America?" when he says, "Why can't we get scenes like this in the US?!?" I believe he means, "Why can't we have two American steamers highballing at 80+mph on the mainline around here, like they do in England."

When did two American mainline steamers highball at 80 MPH in England? I'd sure love to see that.

dave

OK, reread it and........it really comes down to that bit of a disagreement we had with England about 240 years back. Geography is destiny, and if there hadn't been a seperation we would have changed the British culture from that of a close knit small island nation losing their far-flung outposts since their only place for expansion was here as the Indian part of the empire drew away culturally, Canada and us would have been one, and with us as an available prison, Australia would have been very different as well. England might have been a center of government, and us a center of production.

Given our cultural and tehnical differences, how could we possibly even contemplate a British style of operation here? maybe that's why i didn't get the question. Why aren't oranges pork chops?

dave

*sigh* close, but no cigar, Dave.

What I was asking in my topic title was why can't we here in America, take 2 of our locomotives and run them on the mainline in the same fashion as the UK engines shown in the video are being run....doubleheaded, no diesel assistance, 80mph speeds. I wasn't suggesting running english steamers here in america, or vice versa.

[quote]*sigh* close, but no cigar, Dave[/quote]

....irony deficiency......

Is the Milwaukee 261 fleet Tier-1?

I think Iron Dave was using a little sarcasm...maybe "sartalics" would help?

But seriously, no disrespect meant PRR, but if you're looking for the "yeah man, you're right, why the heck can't we do cool stuff like that here?!?" response you may want to try Trainorders. If you're looking for legitimate reasoning, which the posts above have provided, than you came to the right place.

Very generally speaking, "Foamer Fantasy" type posts are generally not as well received here as they are elsewhere. That's one of the reasons I enjoy this forum immensely!

[quote="softwerkslex"]Is the Milwaukee 261 fleet Tier-1?[/quote]

Eleven cars of the 261 passenger car fleet are presently certified for Amtrak service. The breakdown of cars is as follows: Baggage-dorm 1615 (tool car and crew quarters), 1 former PRR "Clocker" coach, 2 former CofG/Algoma Central coaches, sleeper "Minnesota River", concession/baggage car 2450, lounges "Wisconsin River" and "St. Croix River", Super Dome 53, Skytop-parlor "Cedar Rapids" and former N&W office car "Lamberts Point." Two other ex-PRR "Clocker" coaches (one owned by the group and one owned by a member and leased to the group) have been sold.

The bag-dorm, the remaining "Clocker" coach, the "Wisconsin" and "St. Croix River" and the Super Dome all came to the organization having been in Amtrak service (Dome 53 was owned by the State of N. Carolina but was Amtrak-certified for use in the state-sponsored NC trains). "Lamberts Point", although never in Amtrak service, came fully certified, also.

The two CofG/AC coaches, the "Minnesota River", the concession/baggage car and the "Cedar Rapids" were all brought up to Amtrak certification by the shop crew at Minneapolis Junction. This includes application of 480V equipment, required body work, interior rehab, retention toilets, in some cases generators and fuel tanks and truck rebuilds just to name a few items. This program was started in 2003 with "Cedar Rapids" when contracts were solidified for the Grand Excursion of 2004. The car had been purchased a couple of years earlier and is, in the minds of the 261 organization, as iconic as the 261. It is a car that consistently sells out and generates good revenue.

Having a certified car fleet certainly allows a group to maximize their revenue by not having to pay lease and deadhead charges to a second party before the first revolution of the locomotive's drivers is completed. But a secure storage area with a fully equipped shop and a solid core of competent and motivated volunteers is a MUST to make it work. The car fleet can also generate revenue in charter service and leases but someone must be available to manage is aspect of the business and actively market the cars.

As previously discussed in this thread, comparing English excursions to North American excursions is rather like comparing apples to oranges. The access issues and attitudes differ greatly. But occasionally a surprise happens such as represented in the attached video. A supportive and extremely friendly Canadian Pacific can be thanked for allowing this to happen back in September 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw1k2d9UEOo

Don C.