Does anyone have the latest status on K4 1361 undergoing rebuild at Scranton?

edwinsinclair@hotmail.com

i was there last week. most of the work that was done is going to be redone . all welding is to be cut out and redone . the steam dome and backhead is off again and all of the rivets are to be re done.that is all. and don't call me bad news bob

staybolt2@netscape.net

If this is true, I think we'd all like to know why. I presume done by someone (like myself) who couldn't weld very well?

> i was there last week. most of the work that
> was done is going to be redone . all welding
> is to be cut out and redone . the steam dome
> and backhead is off again and all of the
> rivets are to be re done.that is all. and
> don't call me bad news bob


ryarger@rypn.org

> If this is true, I think we'd all like to
> know why. I presume done by someone (like
> myself) who couldn't weld very well?

I guess this confirms the wags' title for 1361 as the "K-4ever". Yipes!
Don C.


old_fxrs@msn.com

> The former contractor for this project was dismissed several months ago without explanation and Bill Fredrickson-who was working on the 3713 took over. Apparently, he has some misgivings about the work done by his predecessor.

Don't look for this anytime soon.

superheater@beer.com

> Don't look for this anytime soon.

Maybe this speaks to a larger issue. Could it possibly be that there is so much interest in getting a K-4 back in steam that they are willing to move things along TOO quickly? I would rather see the resto take 10 years and have it done right than 2 and have it done so bad that they have her in and out of the shop every other month.

TJ


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> i was there last week. most of the work that
> was done is going to be redone . all welding
> is to be cut out and redone . the steam dome
> and backhead is off again and all of the
> rivets are to be re done.that is all. and
> don't call me bad news bob

I stared at this report in utter disbelief until I took the liberty of contacting some people with contacts with the 1361 project and other Steamtown projects. Sad to say, the report above is NOT a rumor-mill joke.

According to one source, the current project head had some personal misgivings about both the rivet stock (definitely found to be faulty) and several of the welds done under the "previous administration". However, apparently the project was carried out using material and/or specifications made by an earlier-still administration; therefore, fault-finding may be a fruitless endeavor.

Moreover, I am hearing from people NOT connected directly to the 1361 project that those now "running the show" have managed to antagonize quite a few of the more dedicated volunteers of Steamtown in general and specific projects. Since there are three sides to every dispute, I'm not wading into specifics, but if the reports I am hearing are any indication, the "new management" has possibly done irreparable harm to their causes.

The worst possible case? There is an allegation that one party that should know better loudly disparaged and condemned the work of "untrained amateur" volunteers in a railroad environment in general, and the efforts of a specific party of volunteers that had worked on a previous project.

Whether or not the work in question was indeed faulty, I do know that certain parties who were caught in the middle have now either turned their backs on Steamtown or are considering doing so. This is hardly an environment where one can try to appeal to a busload of volunteers from Altoona, if they were ever of the mind to help.......


celticwren@yahoo.com

> I stared at this report in utter disbelief
> until I took the liberty of contacting some
> people with contacts with the 1361 project
> and other Steamtown projects. Sad to say,
> the report above is NOT a rumor-mill joke.

> The worst is that this restoration will postpone the work on the 3713 as well.

The real question I have is how do you know if a "steam-guy" knows what he's doing? Its not like you get a degree in this. (you might've but the attempt to have an A.S degree offered by the Johnson School of Technology was cut short after a year for lack of enrollment)



superheater@beer.com

> The real question I have is how do you know
> if a "steam-guy" knows what he's
> doing?

Most experienced contractors have references and (hopefully) real stuff out there you can look at. Those that are inexperienced probably don't know what they are doing but if they have good networks they can find out, if they can figure out what questions to ask. Experience doesn't have to come from being a chief, the project leaders of today learned by working for project leaders in the past. This is one of the few endeavors where depth comes with breadth - the wider the range of projects worked on, the more different sets of circumstances, the better the understanding of the process as a whole.

Short answer, ask people who have opinions that are worth hearing, and look at results.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Greetings form the Town of Steam

As far as politics at S-town are concerned I won't get into that, but, everything that was mentioned about the project is true, unfortunately. Its not a matter of one contractor having an axe to grind against another, it is a fact. The previous contractor was dimissed BEFORE the new one took over.

The specter of knowing if a contractor is doing the correct thing has been raised as well. At the end of it all, Steamtown was supposed to be minding the store and supervising the project at the top level. In fact half of the former NPS Steam Dept director's salary was covered by the Altoona museum. Coincidentally, that director of the steam department has been moved to a non supervisory roll in the park.

Don't look for this engine for a while. Altoona has been quiet, evaluating their position. They have ALOT riding on this (as the site has their own woes). this is unwelcome news indeed.

As far as the 3713 goes, the work on that has been unquestioned and it is being funded by a different organization. Should have no adverse effect.

While I hate to recieve let alone give news like this, this is an exception, as these projects recieve heavy funding from the State of PA and Federal Govt's. You all have the right to know, its your money.



boredinnepa@yahoo.com

> Most experienced contractors have references
> and (hopefully) real stuff out there you can
> look at. Those that are inexperienced
> probably don't know what they are doing but
> if they have good networks they can find
> out, if they can figure out what questions
> to ask. Experience doesn't have to come from
> being a chief, the project leaders of today
> learned by working for project leaders in
> the past. This is one of the few endeavors
> where depth comes with breadth - the wider
> the range of projects worked on, the more
> different sets of circumstances, the better
> the understanding of the process as a whole.

> Short answer, ask people who have opinions
> that are worth hearing, and look at results.

There apparently seems to be another issue at play in this round of "they said, he said": There are some circumstances where actual experiences and results aren't necessarily quantifiable.

Without naming specific names, are we to accept without question the work of a team that put certain big main-line steam locomotives back on the rails, simply because their locos haven't fallen apart or blown up? Conversely, do we discredit otherwise-worthy people just because they happened to work on the wrong projects? I know that in "insider" circles some names are held sacred (the mechanical heads of mainline RR steam programs or for-profit steam operations, for example) and others are treated like the plague; I also sense much of this has more to do with management issues and the personalities involved, not the actual craftsmanship or talent involved.

What about a "boomer" that, to make up an example, has performed welding and boiler work on locos as diverse as NKP 759, Reading 2101 and 2102, CP 972, Chessie 614, C&O/SR 2716, PRR 1361, and N&W 1218? Is his input worthless because none of those locomotives are running now? Is he responsible for the locos not being in operable condition at the moment? And has he learned from the mistakes of others, or does he just bring bad karma with him?


celticwren@yahoo.com

Well, Phoebe, if the reason those locomotives don't run is the work of that boomer, I certainly wouldn't want to hire him. If the boiler work was great but the business plan killed the project, I would certainly hire the boomer but not the manager.

Again, get opinions from those whose opinions are worth listening to. There is one guy out there who can't manage and has some integrity problems but does fine work for those who have carefully controlled the purse strings and the project, for example. If you have the time and expertise to use him under those circumstances, please do. If not, having been warned by his references, then you may be well advised to look elsewhere.

The fit is important, and different contractors have different strengths. Know what you need and choose carefully accordingly. If you are so ignorant you don't know what you need, don't do the project - you are doomed to failure.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

>> As far as the 3713 goes, the work on that
> has been unquestioned and it is being funded
> by a different organization. Should have no
> adverse effect.

I should've been more clear. The new 1361 contractor is the existing 3713 contractor and work has pretty much stalled on the 3713 because of the situation detailed here.

Rare skills only go so far!

Too bad, because from what I understand, the 3713 is in far better shape than the 1361 and starting from scatch-would've been ready to roll much faster.


superheater@beer.com

I know all about the K4 contractor at Steamtown. He used to work on 2102 and 425 at BM&R. He also "fixed" 1098 at Jim Thorpe which only ran two weekends in the early 90s and never ran again. I saw some of the work done on that engine and was absoutely shocked at what I saw and the stories connected with it. I'm surprised they didn't check any references when this person was hired for 3713 and 1361. It is a shame the engine was never sent to Strasburg where it would have been done right and ahead of schedule.

I understand Chris Ahrens is no longer head of the Steamtown shop. Who is now in charge up there?