Paul,
I agree with you on that one. I was told we are using some type of special marine paint on 16. What she has on her now is primer. If it was my project I probably would have gone ahead with the gloss black.

Rich C, thank you, you hit the nail right on the head. More the fact is we are having a very difficult time finding someone that can even mix the paint special for us. Rustoleum is not like Benjamin Moore, we can't just go to Home Depot, scan a color card and they make it. The closest I have found is the local car parts store that has a chart that you can choice colors from so it is still not the accurate color. I don't believe they guarantee it to be accurate to the color chart either. I don't believe the baggage car will be painted accurate Tuscan red either, they just can't do it. I don't see spending over $60 a gallon for paint that is not exact vs paint that is $35 a gallon off the shelf and keeps it from decaying more.

Why is there time to never do it correctly? If we were going to do it correctly I would need an indoor paint booth, and thousands of dollars in proper locomotive paint. I believe the current price we have at the Nevada Northern to repaint our RS-3 is roughly $12,000. And honestly the last time they repainted (before my time at the museum)1556, they only painted half of the damn thing, and 7 years later it went to hell. I want equipment that looks nice and is freshly painted for the families that come to the museum who don't care if the engine is the wrong shade of grey. They just want to see a train that looks nice and not rusting away and looks terrible. I do believe I am doing this paint job "right" by griding old paint off, painting the ENTIRE thing coupler to coupler in two coats of paint, rather then the one coat they only put on half the locomotive in the early 2000's. I can guarantee as well in 10 years or less 1556 is going to again need paint, and will again look absolutely disgusting, but that is the curse of an outdoor museum.

And why the rush? I am gone for good in really a matter of a few weeks as I go off to work with steam trains at the Nevada Northern Railway Museum. If no one else paints anything again I will know I did all I could do, and extended the life of the stuff a few more years.

But here is a photo of 1556 before I started. Would it be better to leave the engine as is or paint it in the wrong shade of grey to prevent it from rusting, and eliminating a eye soar in the Town of Riverhead?



Anthony

You are trotting out the same arguments that keep things at a status quo. I understand your point, but they are the easy points to make. I would argue that painting it to keep it from rusting is the primary responsibility, then I would argue, for a museum to keep a historic locomotive in the wrong paint scheme undercuts the purpose of a museum. You need to find a sponsor for the correct painting, and give them credit in the advertising or artifact placard. If the locomotive is held off display, it doesn't matter if it's kept in primer. If it is on display, you need to identify it correctly.
The expedient path is not doing the museum any favor. That's my opinion; if you don't like it, I have others.

What is on it now is Ameron 235 epoxy, aka bottom paint. Tough as nails, but absolutly NO UV protection whatsoever. Should have used the one that does have the UV protection (cant think of the number right now) and you likely would never have to paint it again. That's all I am saying in this matter as this is not the place to air my views.

It sounds right, the sun is the death of a lot of paint jobs around there.

Anthony

Has any work been done on preserving the mechanical side of it? Oiling the cylinders, barring it over? I know I read someplace they have hope of getting it running again in the future.


At RMNE I have a pump sprayer (for doing shrubs and trees) that I have filled with loco oil (non-zinc) that I use to spray down the stored engines. Open valve covers on EMDs, or just pull the valve covers off on the Alco's and spray everything down with a coat of oil to prevent rust and keep the parts oiled, same for opening the base doors and spraying the crank and other bottom end parts. I have even taken out the test cocks and sprayed some in the cylinders. A few of the engines I have even tapped into the oiling system with a prelube pump to pump the engines own oil through out before barring them over.

Helps keep them maintained for the day they will hopefully run again.

Lastly, I also have cleaned out under the cab floors, drain holes, ect to prevent moisture and debris from speeding up the rusting of the bodies.

Richard,

You seem to be the expert on telling other museums what to do, so why don't you go down to Long Island and spearhead an effort to do it right? After all, the people at RMLI must be idiots if they don't do it your way, so why don't you show them through example? They need leadership, give it.

Trotting around the country and telling others how to run their museums on a railway preservation message board is pretty easy. Actually doing something about it is harder. If you don't like that opinion, I have others.

I really don't see why museums and volunteers even attempt to post progress photos and reports on this board, as they suffer a death from a thousand cuts of armchair preservationists who always know better. Why publicize your progress when you obviously aren't doing it right, according to the "experts"?

She has been completely lubed, barred over etc. I know because I did it. I can say exactly what it needs to run again, but I am not going anywhere near that right now. Its getting some rust protection, good enough for now.

Indeed, and 1556 is still very well lubed, with all of her pistons and such "wet" and still moving without a problem. A tarp was also placed over her prime mover, to prevent any weather from spilling on top of it. A number of hoses had also been replaced last spring. Our diesel mechanic has been absent the last two years, hopefully to return to us soon after taking on a new job that has been taking up his time. Turning 1556 over is not that far out in the future. But exactly, rust prevention now will give them a locomotive to work on for another 10 years.

MEC_557,

Very good ideas with the pump! Never would have thought of that. I'm going to take that one with me. I have also removed a lot of rust from the undercarriage while repainting as you also mentioned.

wilkinsd,

Thank you! I agree and don't understand why I waste my time either :-)

Anthony

David: This is not the place to air your dislike of me as an individual. My concern is for the value of the locomotive in its historical context as a teaching artifact in a "museum".
I have PM'd you with a response to your attack on me.

1556 is nowhere near ready to start, and I pray that an Alco guy is the one that takes it on, not a regular mechanic.

Rich G.,

I also forgot to mention, unless someone hands the museum a check and says use 100% correct paint color and type on XYZ restoration, why spend $60-80/gal on HD Paint that will be dull in 15 years, vs. spending $25-35/gal on Rustolium or Sherwin Williams Industrial grade paint that is only a few shades off that will be dull in 8-10 years. Afterall you can paint 2 locomotives or cars for the same price.

Personally I would rather see 2 nice looking engines that have gloss or satin (aka slightly oxidized) coats of paint that are close to accurate color, than to have one display locomotive that is 100% correct (color tones) next to a dirty, rusty one. There is a balance that must be maintained between equipment/display condition and money spent to maintain them, unless you have access to a bottomless pit of money.

Actually I wouldn't mind if a group painted a rare locomotive Puke Green or Hot Pink and letter it for a non existing railroad, as long as they spent the time to stop the degradation and prep the metal under the paint. If the metal is still there it can be repainted later, if the metal is lost to rust then it and what it was protecting will have to be repaired later. Also to the general public that pass through a museum, a piece of equipment with clean paint is a maintained item, rusty dirty equipment are abandoned eyesores even if it has a info tag.

Keep in mind this is the opinion of someone who averages 1.25-1.5 days a week volunteering at a railroad museum (painting, mowing, welding, repairing, rebuilding, constructing and digging), and 1/3rd of the time I also end up bringing projects home with me. I tend to leave the museum tired, sweaty and dirty, sometimes hours after the gate closes.

Rich Cizik
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org

P.S. Rich G., I don't know you or your history, but unless you are ready to either fund the project or climb into the trenches, please don't shoot down the efforts of others to maintain their equipment in ways that preserve the equipment while not bankrupting their museum.

Excuse my ignorance. I was under the impression that a "museum" is supposed to reflect historic and accurate information to visitors. Silly me!

Nobody is shooting down the efforts of young Mr. Debellis. He alone, has put forth more sweat and effort into preserving the LIRR equipment stored outdoors at RMLI, than many associated with the institution. All credit to Anthony, and deservedly so. My comment was to get the shade of gray correct for the era of operation this particular RS3 is meant to represent. There were several gray paint schemes used by the LIRR, and a light gray, similar to the one being applied appeared in a Louis Tichy inspired era. This particular locomotive was the symbolic Diesel used in the last transition trip which swapped G5s #39 with RS3 #1556. Both locomotives are cared for by RMLI. #1556 never wore the Tichy gray, but rather, a darker blue/gray, associated with the administration of then President Goodfellow. That scheme was eschewed in favor of the "World's Fair swoop", which was, in turn, painted over with MTA blue. In this case, lettering and color make a difference.

Finding a business with budgeted funds for a non-profit shouldn't be impossible. Difficult, I would grant, but not impossible. Please refer to the comment following the thread about the Los Angeles "art rock" elsewhere on this board.

Ameron 235 is a 2-pack epoxy pri- pri- pri- coating system that is mainly a primer and works standalone in dark places such as bilges and tanks. That's about right, food cans are coated internally with the same stuff. Price seems favorable, I'm seeing $40-60/gal. and it has better on-metal additives than Awlgrip 545 ($75/gal). However all epoxy products will fail quickly in direct exposure to UV and in those applications this stuff is marketed as a primer.

There are other chemistries (polyurethane) which intrinsically resist UV. They can also add UV-resist to epoxy. But as they say, it's easier to teach a violinist the bongoes than the other way 'round :) Use a non-epoxy topcoat.

I can tell you that where I have painted epoxy primers and left them in the sun, they fail inside of a year. The good news is that if you recoat in time, epoxy primers are a viable base for almost all topcoats, and the preferred base for polyurethane topcoats. They have a very hard surface so you need to whisk-sand to add some surface "tooth" for the next layer to grab, wipedown and recoat with anything. It could easily be done in sections so it isn't a big production.


For a custom match in alkyd enamel... Sherwin Williams. Call the nearest shop, tell them you need a custom match of alkyd enamels and see what they say. They will probably send you to the nearest store that does a lot in commercial coatings. Tell them you're a nonprofit and ask for the wholesale price, they'll probably just use the stores' own customer account. I think I got outta there for $45 for a hand-matched attempt at Traction Orange. (it was out of gamut for their scanner.)


*blink* *cough* *sputter* I mean -- I'll quote you $11,500. Hire me! LOL! Nah seriously, that reflects what a painter's time is worth. It's almost all labor.

But seriously, don't make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good". Yeah, you can paint indoors, but you can paint outdoors too. Yeah, you can waste half your paint in overspray and gun cleaning, but you can roll/tip too. Yeah, you can use magic $4000 aircraft paint I've never heard of... but you can also spend about $1300 to brush a 2-pack poly. That's my back-of-napkin for an RS-2.

As an evangelist for the "good stuff" I certainly have run into all the above beliefs. I share Mr. Gleuck's skepticism but I do not share his need to get you to change. At the end of the day, ANY project to get paint on something is worthwhile. And I'm certainly not going to tell a guy he should change course midstream, because that delays and kills projects. If you're in motion, stay in motion. Refine technique later.

The only thing that'll get me out of my chair is using latex, silicones or linseed oil - because those will make life a living hell for the next painter.


Yeah, I got real sick of that, real fast. :( Hence my search for alternatives.

Gentle Forum Members,

No one will ever win the rivet counting, "as delivered," paint scheme argument - - - - EVER. I refuse to try and mediate these arguments on the ground or in the Board Room. My official position for equipment that must be exposed to the elements is: get the shade of paint close, go buy the paint and put it on, protect the artifact . . . . . . . the public will love you for a clean and shiny exhibit and the Loons and Foamers will hate you, no matter what you do.

I apologize for sounding cynical and “with attitude.” I have been actively involved with the Museum/Preservation game for sixteen years, (a meer pup compared to many on this Forum). My experience has been that if there are five sets of expert eyes observing some restoration work, there will be five opinions as to what, when, why and how the project should be done. More than anything else I have observed, this is the reason “there (is) never time to do it correctly, but always time to do it over again?” In the mean time, precious artifacts are lost.

Each of you add valuable and informed opinions and information to this discussion, thank you.

robertmacdowell . . . . . . . We will hit up our Sherwin Williams dealer and see what he has to offer, I have the Pennsy drift card for Tuscan Red. What is your experience with Sherwin Williams products being placed over Rust-Oleum rusty metal primer?

Brother Glueck . . . . . . . the new woodwork in the BEDT 16 is all #2 construction cedar. It is being caulked, primed and then painted with numerous coats of exterior oil base paint. Regarding the 1556 paint, I chose the Rust-Oleum smoke grey because it closely matches the darker, “as delivered” paint from the early days. It is much darker and “bluer” that Anthony’s sun drenched photo represents. If you ever get out of Maine and back to Long Island I think you will be pleased with the shade and color scheme.

BEDT16RMLI . . . . . sorry Mike, the doors and window trim on BEDT 16 will be red.

MEC_557 . . . . . . . Nova 55 and Brother Paul (California FRED) started an aggressive maintenance program on 1556 about five years ago. Nova did a great deal of pickling work on her at that time. Autumn 2010 big bore diesel folks performed maintenance on her again.

Anthony will continue to post our progress here, even at the expense of pain by a thousand cuts. Heading off to work on the Nevada Northern in June – he needs to get his skin toughened up for those hot desert days and cold desert nights! I heartily approve :-)

Thank you for your interest in the Railroad Museum of Long Island
Don Fisher, President

AKA: de Don n2qhvRMLI and Long Island FRED

I think enough has been said on this thread about the paint scheme. However, for the record, I will say this. Richard, what I wrote was not a "personal attack." A personal attack would be "Richard smells!" or "Richard is an idiot" or "Richard is a dummy." I didn't say anything like this, nor do I adopt those opinions. My comments were focused at your words. There is a difference between a personal attack and calling something a personal attack.

As to the folks on Long Island, keep up the good work.