Amazing...

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/high-line-may-mix-past-with-koonss-vision/?nl=nyregion&emc=edit_ur_20120327

However much that designer/artist/whatever is getting paid, its WAY to much. That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

I believe there is a certain Reading 4-8-4 out west that could be purchased for less and hung nose down.

I'm sorry, but I feel you're being rather harsh and unfair.

Is the idea of hanging a fake locomotive in the air stupid? Well, maybe, depending on your point of view... I've seen plenty of other sculptures that could been seen as "stupid". How about the giant coffee bean in Chicago (Should be in Seattle...). The Spoon and Cherry in Minneapolis (I think?). There's a giant eraser in Seattle at the sculpture park, and a baseball glove with a HOLE IN IT! outside of Safeco Field. Then again, given the Mariner's recent performance, maybe it does fit.

I think the Highline would be a great place for this sculpture! At least it honors the past of the location and fits in with the theme. It would become a tourist attraction and help the neighborhood grow.

Think you can do better? Fine, come up with a proposal they'll get behind! No, buying a Berkshire, a string of coaches and laying some track won't work. Yes, you could do it for $25 mill. You could hire somebody to do it for you and still have lots left over. But that doesn't matter.

You wanna talk overpaid for stupid stuff? Well, how about hitting a ball with a stick, or playing some other kids game...

Estimated earnings for last year, from a Sports Illustrated article:
Tiger Woods - 62,294,116
Phil Mickelson - 61,185,933
LeBron James - 44,500,000
Peyton Manning - 38,070,000
Alex Rodriguez - 36,000,000

Or consider the people who earn millions singing a song.

Art is important to an awful lot of people, and they value it highly, or the artists and athletes wouldn't earn what they do. They'd get paid some piddly amount like teachers.

I was just about to post a link to this. As an "artist" and someone deeply involved with placemaking, this gets the brain flowing.

I wrote a rather pretentious email suggesting that the replica be one of the 20th Century Limited, and not a Santa Fe Engine, and explained the compelling historic/aesthetic reasons why it would make sense. The High Line's Facebook page is alight with reactions/suggestions, and I agree something that is physically trackside could be more suitable (if not traditional -- but this IS the High Line, which is built on nontraditional premises.) The beauty of the High Line to railroad preservation is that much of the railroad structure and actual railbed is preserved, but in a way that makes it culturally relevant to the 21st Century. And if hanging a 200 ton locomotive over everyone's heads is another way to make people interested...well, it's intriguing.

But man, if you're gonna go to the millions of dollars of trouble to do it, do it with some class (no offense to the 2900s, of course...)

Here's their blog post on it:
http://www.thehighline.org/blog/2012/03 ... -high-line

The most railfany post I may have ever written,

I can think of a much, much better use for 25 million, especially being a NY'er..

The High Line is a great use for this old structure, but I dont feel hanging a steam engine over it is, art or not. Atleast get something that goes hand in hand with the High Line, Get a NYC RS3 hulk and put it up there.

A 4-8-4, the Kaufman Act (evern though it did not pass), High Line, and Death Ave, just dont go together in my book.

I guess I just dont understand art.

I'm not opposed to art, am in favor of railroads, and the High Line.

But I don't agree with this concept for the following reasons:

1) Historical Accuracy:
The locomotive mentioned is not historically accurate for the area or the purpose. As per Nova55, I would like to see something placed at, on or by the High Line that denotes the New York Central Railroad's history in the area.

Placing a New York Central switching locomotive of the type that ran on the High Line is a better choice. This has a two fold effect:
a) it compliments the High Line historically, and
b) it also rescues a locomotive that otherwise goes underappreciated.


2) Safety factor:
I don't care if the crane is gyro stabilized or not. One engineering error, one act of vandalism, accident or ignorance; and the city has a major expense cleaning it up. Not to mention the potential for injury or worse.

3) Inconvenience:
A crane / derrick needed to suspend the locomotive would have to be sufficently large enough for the purpose. That will require at least closing off a street (partially or completely) for the duration of the display, plus the area under the locomotive closed off to pedestrian / vehicular traffice for the duration as safety factor. NY is congested enough.

4)
Why is a Los Angeles Museum conducting a study? Why hasn't a New York based Museum been contracted for this study?

5) Funds Better Spent:
Just up river (Hudson) is one of the most historically significant pieces of rail marine infrastructure: the first James B. French Patent overhead suspended electrically operated transfer bridge, built in 1909. It's almost completely original, with original spans remaining (the LIC gantry plaza spans are non-prototype mock ups)

The transfer bridge at West 69th Street is on the National Register of Historic Places, but it's slowly deteriorating. 25 mil would go a really long way stabilizing and restoring this historically significant piece.

Again, I hold no objection to art in any form (no matter how offensive it may be, because it is an expression on the part of the artist), and while I can appreciate this concept; I just don't agree.

Hopefully, a compromise can be reached.

Sincerely,

This isn't about history, it's about ART. Tiger Woods isn't going to be hired by the New York Yankees as their starting pitcher. He plays a different game. Art is a different game than historic preservation. They're both worthy causes, but trying to divert funds from one to the other is usually a non-starter.



The artist originally proposed this installation for Los Angeles, and so they did the study. It's also why the engine in question is a Santa Fe loco. I would expect it might be possible to talk him into using a switch engine, or streamlined hudson or Mohawk etc.

The folks in Los Angeles apparently also thought it was stupid to suspend a locomotive over peoples heads. So they bought a big rock instead...

Keep in mind that ideas like this get floated every day. We only notice the ones that pique our interest. The majority of them don't ever get beyond the "Wouldn't it be cool?" stage. This artist is apparently good at PR so he's getting better exposure than some might.

Oh, and you think a hanging locomotive is silly?

How about the world's largest Chia Pet?

http://publicartfund.org/pafweb/project ... _j_00.html

That was another of his projects...

(Some days I think I"m in the wrong line of work.)

Really? We ARE talking art AND history. Art becomes history. History inspires art. Otherwise, why is Koons using a steam locomotive and not a ultra modern French TGV train?




What the hell does Tiger Wood or the Yankees have got to do with this? We are not talking sports. Stay on topic with appropriate analogies, please.




And if this project is done right: both art and historical preservation can benefit. Of which helps two fields of endeavors, not one. A much better value in my book.


If it's a New York Central loco, it can be sold / donated to the High Line group(s) and left there. Again TWO fields of expression benefit.




[/quote]

Well, if the Los Angeles residents thought it was a stupid idea, why pass it off on New York? Are we supposed to be dumber (or more gullible) than they?

Bob makes some decent points here. Your average person doesn’t understand art any more than they understand railroad preservation. While I think I understand what the artist intended here, I agree it’s not what I would do if I got the grant (I’m an illustrator, not a sculptor, but that’s not the point anyway). That said, having gone through art school, I tire easily of people who see an art project (either proposed or installed) and think they alone should be allowed to ‘tweak’ it just a tad to what they alone have in mind. You have no idea how many drawings I’ve done over the years where some slack-jawed mouth-breather thought I should change just one thing to suit them alone. I’ve learned to suppress the urge to strange them and now calmly reply that if they have a different vision, they should make their own art to match that. In 100% of the cases, I’ve gotten a shocked reply of, “But I can’t draw!” The comebacks are pretty easy at that point. I did murals for a while but no longer do them because often, someone will have the nerve to actually draw or paint their own “corrections” over my work. Needless to say, that’s why I don’t do those anymore.
There’s plenty of art out there that’s not my cup of tea. But I get aggravated easily at those who will look at something they don’t get and say, “That’s NOT art.” Sure, there are those who wrap themselves in a blanket of self-importance and ‘declare’ things as art when very little insight or effort was expended. But those people are in the minority. Most art is done genuinely, with some manner of vision. Just because it isn’t YOUR vision, that isn’t the point. And if you don’t understand that, don’t expect the artist to cater to the way you see things. THAT is not what art is about.
Or even worse, “I could do that.” Yeah, if you looked at the work you might be able to re-create that. But THAT isn’t art, that’s copying. Coming up with a new concept is the hardest part in art. Almost anyone can paint a copy of something if they have the time, but coming up with the idea, that is what most people don’t have in them.

I didn't come here to have my writing critiqued. Unless you're a moderator, I really don't care what you think of my analogies. If you don't like them, then don't bother responding. Pretty simple, eh?



I guess you'd better get started on an alternate proposal then.



That remains to be seen....

Dear Bob:

Obviously you don't like have your own opinions questioned or critiqued, but it is ok for to do so to someone else's? "Your way or the highway", eh?

Heres something even better for everyone to consider:

Koons' idea is neither preservation nor restoration.

Therefore, technically and realistically, it has no place being discussed here in Railway Preservation News.

So, my suggestion is to take art discussions to an art forum, or possibly a more generalized railroad forum, and then perhaps you won't have to read/listen to the objective opinions of preservationists and historians who disagree with you.

Have a wonderful fulfilling day!

This sure is an interesting idea, and an interesting discussion. So, I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First of all, kudo's to the City of New York for saving, and USING the High Line. For both its citizens, and as a tourist draw. And secondly, thanks for saving some (at least) of the lines history as a RAIL line. As to this structure itself; after thinking about it, I have to give it a thumbs up. Not, WAY UP, but up at least. I agree with Kelly that the engine depicted should be a New York Central engine, and not a Santa Fe 2900 (we're going to get one of those actually in steam some day!). Also, although I couldn't find out exactly in the story, my guess is that this is going to be what it says...a Sculpture, and nowhere near to the real thing. Probably made out of fiberglass or something similar, to keep the weight down. My guess is that the chain holding the "locomotive" will be an intergral part of the Sculpture so that there will not be a lot of swinging in the wind (ART folks please offer opinions here). Maybe IF this thing actually gets built and put in place, and IF the engine depicted is a NYC Hudson, it MIGHT actually help those that have expressed an interest in replicating a J1 or J3 that actually DOES run down the tracks. Use the Sculpture to build up some interest in that project! And if that particular idea never takes hold, at least we would have a full size replica of one, even if it has to be just hanging. Right now we have nothing. So go ahead New York, and do it! Make sure you get input from railroaders/railfans/preservationists so that the replicated engine Sculpture is as authentic as it can be. Who knows? Maybe it just might be the catalyst for me to one day finally visit the Big Apple!

Les

Go back and read my reply again. I did not object to having my opinions questioned, I objected to having my writing style critiqued.



My suggestion to you is to stop trying telling other people what to do. That's the moderator's job, not yours. If you don't like a discussion, don't participate.



Sarcastic little bugger aren't you?