Two completely disconnected thoughts - neither of which have anything to do with today's date.

First - Superheater has given us a codified version of one of the primary rules of management, to wit: 'If you do not know what you are doing, find someone who does and let them do it!!'

Second - What everybody has been missing so far in this discussion is that the line has, for around a quarter of century, been isolated from the General Railroad System of the United States. In this case the isolation is not something which can be resolved with a few hundred feet of rail and ties and maybe a switch.

Sometime after the Southampton accident SEPTA performed a major rehabilitation on the Neshaminy Line which included Continuous Welded Rail of a larger section than that which was in place. Rather than have new diamonds fabricated for Ayers, the crossing was simply removed pending a decision on restoration of service. Subsequent to this SEPTA converted the station at Rhawn street (the end of the wire) to a stub terminal and I believe that at least some of the track through the park north of the crossing was removed.

The cost of restoring the diamond and the connection at Rhawn Street is prohibitive. The next obvious solution is a connection at Ayers. This, despite SEPTA's own stillborn suggestion to electrify to Newtown, has serious geographical and environmental challenges. The other suggestion which seems to come up is to connect with the Trenton Cut-Off which would also be extremely costly because of the grade separation.

Since a reconnection would cost a King's Ransom squared (or maybe cubed) the isolation could be turned to an advantage. The lack of a connection removes the usual concerns about 'amateurs' playing near the 'real' railroad. Some equipment can certainly be trucked in and as I recall the stretch between Byberry Road and Bryn Athyn runs through a nature preserve and would lend itself to motor car trips.

Gentlemen, I wish you well in this endeavor.

GME

P.S. In PRR days the line was connected via the Bustleton Branch. The right-of-way is now Moreland Road. This of course is my preferred routing...

Edited once to correct my spelling of the name of the crossing.

Having just taken a little "virtual stroll" over this line via Google and Bing Maps, I do believe I'd much rather go about rebuilding the East Broad Top. Most likely far easier at this point.

You are correct Jim (give me a break, I failed geography-twice)! As I recall the active RDCs were on the south side of Street Rd but quite a distance from Street Rd, maybe at a station(?)

Later!
Mr. Ed

Thank you everyone for the advice given so far. This is at least a good starting and reference point for our group.

As was mentioned a few times, we're not even talking about running trains right now. Our first and only goal at the moment is to get permission to clean up the line and preserve what's out there now. Removing vegetation, cataloging and repainting signal boxes and track circuits. Documenting it in some literature, and providing guided walking tours on significant parts of the line.

Down the road, we've talked about running a short "trolley" to the local park in Southampton, which is about 2 miles. It would be an excursion with a practical purpose. We'd like to use an ex-PRR Doodlebug. The line isnt in bad shape on that stretch. We'd have to replace alot of ties, drop some ballast, and straighten the rail. If we have a broad base of support from neighboring townships, we'll push out from there.

We'd all like to see trains go back to Fox Chase, and I don't know what makes the diamonds at Bethayres so expensive, but that's not on the agenda right now. If some rich tycoon shows up and wants to help us get there, that would be great, but for now its all armchair railroading.

In the meantime, we've already consulted with the West Chester folks, we're working on establishing diplomatic ties with SEPTA, we've consulted with Upper Southampton Township and we're already out working on the railroad. Progress is being made. This will take a long time, but I'm encouraged by the broad base of support we already have from railroaders, local residents, historians and even high school kids.

Please let us know when you have your 501 letter from the IRS.

First - I am relieved that the service to Fox Chase is not high on the agenda.

Pretending, for the sake of discussion, that SEPTA were to agree to the crossing being reestablished there are three elements involved, two of which are very expensive and one of which is merely expensive.

A) Trackwork.
The old diamonds cannot be reused (if they still exist) because the mainline rail is a different cross section than was in use originally and I would not be surprised if the Neshaminy Line geometry has also changed. This means that a new set of diamonds will have to be engineered and fabricated. They are not available off the shelf from track component suppliers and the standards to which they will have to be engineered are based on the main not the branch. If the two tracks of the Neshaminy line are not both perfectly level and level with each other than that geometry will need to be modified or the very expensive diamonds simply will not fit. Then - the approaches on your side will have to be brought up to the same standard so that your track does not create stresses which pull or push the mainline tracks out of alignment. Given the engineering costs and the amount of sub-grade work required I would be very pleasantly surprised at anything less than Three Million Dollars and I would guess closer to Five Million.

B) Signaling.
Thank the engineer at Chatsworth for this one. This may well turn out to be even more expensive than the track work. You would be crossing at grade a very busy passenger carrying mainline which will almost certainly have priority. Add to that the fact that having established the crossing you will almost certainly be required to meet whatever positive train control requirements SEPTA has had to meet. Remember that in this case 'positive' is a euphemism for 'Humans cannot screw it up.' The system will have to be designed so that your train cannot (note that the operative word is 'cannot', not the phrase 'should not') pass a particular point if there is a SEPTA train past the equivalent point and vice versa. By the time that this system has been designed, tested and installed on both your track and on SEPTA'S and the necessary electronic equipment installed in whatever of your rolling stock is going to be making the trek to Fox Chase you will have spent an amount that cannot even be estimated yet because we don't know what the PTC technology will be.

C) Ongoing Maintenance.
This is the one that is merely expensive. The diamond will have to be inspected twice a week and portions of the frogs will require regular replacement due to the constant usage on the SEPTA side. While SEPTA will probably be doing the work you will be paying for it. Same way with the signals. You will have to meet exactly the same inspection and maintenance requirements which SEPTA is required to meet and you will probably be paying SEPTA to do it.

I hope that I haven't completely ruined your dream. I rather appreciate the idea of making SEPTA stop for a Saturdays only PRR motor car.

Second - The Bustleton Branch Reference

This is far enough back that I doubt that the properties are in the ICC Records but then I never had occasion to look for them. The current end of the branch is at Roosevelt Boulevard. It can be further followed on Google Maps to the old terminal at Bustleton Avenue between Welch Road and Grant Avenue. If you extend the ROW across Bustleton Avenue it is Welch Road. You can pick the property line up again in a curve inside the triangle of Welch Road and Verree Road and Alburger Avenue and then again between Welch Road and Stratford Drive and the line runs into to Moreland Road. I do not believe the connection lasted terribly long and certainly not after the Reading Company gained control of the North Pennsylvania. I will try to dig out the references when I am home.

Of interest is that you can identify the begining of the grading for the extension beyond Newtown toward the Delaware River along the east side of Lincoln Avenue past Washington Avenue. Think of how different things might be if this had been built and the Philadelphia Newtown and New York had connected with the Mercer and Somerset.

GME

Honestly, to preserve what is left of some "unspoiled" areas around it, this line should not be restored to full public service. If and when it gets to that point, I would rather see a simple "edwards motor car" type operation over anything larger. It would be low cost operationally and effective (and easier to transport to the isolated ROW than a PRR Gas Car or similar AND easier to build a storage facility for).

Since that is not a priority, I would suggest, once you get permission from SEPTA to clear the ROW, that you talk to the local NARCO groups...they might be interested in helping with clearing, using their track cars, simply to operate over some VERY rare mileage. Their equipment does not need the substructure that heavy rail equipment would need.

Annual or bi-annual treks by this group could help your core group keep things in check.

Keep up the good work, though its just a start, its good to move forward with this project.

Wrong crowd. We live by: If you do not know what you are doing, you learn, and then do it!!!

First, in railway preservation, we love being jacks of all trades, learning new things, that's why we're here. Second most of our crafts are dead and there's no one to hire. And third, we can't afford it, there's no money in railway preservation. Train clubs don't form at yacht clubs.

The trouble is the craft guilds. Fish mongers don't like "Teach a man to fish". The bar, AICPA, Realtors etc. don't like it either, and work pretty hard to frighten the average citizen into thinking they can't do anything at all in that craft. Yes, some affairs are complicated enough to need professional help. But the guild wants you to use them for everything!


I am skeptical about your samples. I expect you see a lot of people who were careless and messed up and needed you to bail them out, and you never see the bunches who get it right. You paint me as some sort of "rain man" but seriously, I'm not anything special. I just am willing to take the time to research and get it right (as opposed to "get away with".)


Hold on. Should we agree to the principle before, or after you sock us with the bill? LOL!

You're in the right neighborhood though. What you're saying is what Adam Smith said. More efficient to stay in your specialty. But when your billing rate is wildly higher than the wages of your customers, it's not as simple as "who is the most efficient worker". Even Adam Smith would not suggest you work 500 hours at McDonald's to pay for 10 hours of your lawyer's time. He'd say spend those 500 hours at the law library and DIY, you'll learn more and be a better person for it! A startup group is likely to be long in volunteer hours and short in cash. The question is how to allocate that so everything gets done.

The OP wants a fairly straightforward nonprofit. There's nothing to it he can't get out of a Nolo Press book. The professional will just copypasta work from other filings. He can do the same from the Nolo book, and tune it better because he knows what he wants. The "opaque jargon" is very easily solved with Google. That was a problem 20 years ago, but not now.


Concur. Isolation is an essential strategy for a startup group because it exempts them from the bulk of 49 CFR. A physical air gap is not needed for isolation, a policy suffices, and in fact you can use your interchange for your own purposes without losing isolation.

Long term I agree Bethayres is certainly a mess. I don't believe a diamond makes any sense. A nonprofit can find a lot of economies by avoiding costs a regular venture might have. But you later named a bunch of really hurtful costs of a diamond, that I don't think the nonprofit can budge. They may have better luck with a grade separation, also expensive, but less complex than a diamond and signaling. I also note there's a very good engineering school not far away.

As far as king's ransoms, I don't believe in them. Any problem can be solved by cubic money. But since cubic money is both scarce and highly corrupting, it almost always leads to cubic fail. Don't doubt me, tour Cleveland's beautiful new streetcar museum. Oh, wait.

Anytime you see someone talk about staggering amounts of money, that is nay-saying.

I'm not sure if you saw electric Silverliners at Warminster station on S.E.P.T.A.'s Warminster branch, or S.E.P.T.A RDCs temporarily stored on the passing siding at Southampton station on the Newtown branch. If you saw cars at Southampton from Street Rd., you were on a bridge over the Newtown branch track. This was more than 25 years ago.

Edit: Southampton station is on the Newtown branch.

Be careful with SEPTA., based on what they did to my beloved, double tracked Bethlehem Branch, which was in a similar status as the Newtown Branch:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... &start=301

SEPTA claimed that the rails were unsuitable for usage in the STB filings (even though the same rail is in use from Quakertown to the South) then they sold it for scrap, oddly keeping some of the rail for their own use (even though they said it was unsuitable). Then they let trail groups move in. That was a very effective way for SEPTA to deal with the groups that were attempting to restore passenger service on the line.

At least SEPTA did make the trail use "temporary" so passenger rail service can be restored someday. Too bad I probably won't live to see the day.

Off subject for a moment, but wasnt the whole point in creating S.E.P.T.A. to preserve passenger railroads and operations? From what I've read, they've really been carving things up the past couple years. I've been on the Saucon trail, and that's devestating. AN intercity route---GONE. Newtown's a little line through the woods that hits some huge developments, but my head still spins on poor Bethlehem.

Again fellas, thanks for the advice. We're moving along slowly and building our team. The advice given here helps tremendously.

SEPTA has problems.... Service expansion just doesn't seem to happen, and they can't seem to keep open what they already have. The West Chester area also suffered from rail service abandonment. Plus, SEPTA wants to treat everything like a bus. I read that when they tried the last gasp of RDC service on the Newtown line, they used bus drivers or subway operators instead of railroad employees.

The only bright lining that I can take from the Bethlehem Branch episode, is that at least the ROW was preserved from the surrounding landowners who were already trying to erase it, and SEPTA really did kept the rights to restore rail service and told the trail operators that.

Some fellow rail-fans and I hiked the out of service portion back in 2002, and I took lots of pictures. I put some of them up here on my webpage:
http://jrevans.fbody.com/beth_branch_1/
http://jrevans.fbody.com/beth_branch_2/

I still can't believe it's gone. A double tracked line, owned by a transit agency, running between two of the largest urban centers in Pennsylvania. I guess the crossover between Counties really hurt the prospect of service, since SEPTA doesn't have any ties to the Lehigh Valley, and LANTA doesn't want anything to do with trains.

The Bethlehem Branch would have been perfect for a tourist operation and it would have been awesome if the RCT&HS purchased the Saucon Creek roundhouse facility. Private SEPTA owned ex-Reading ROW, turntable/roundhouse/backshop, easy highway access. I wasn't a member back then, but wonder why it wasn't pursued. At least they did get the turntable from there.

Good luck with your Newtown project!

There is no market for Commuter Passenger service on the Fox Chase-Newtown Line now matter how many want to say there is, and there was none back in the Reading Days. The only thing that kept the line alive was the limited freight service and Mail contract.

All proposals of recent times have shown a daily ridership (and this is HIGH in my opinion) of under 2,000 for the 15 mile branch. That's not cost effective. The line south of Fox Chase to Olney, has 5 stations in just those 4 heavily populated miles and sees about 2,200 daily riders and those fares cover under 40% of the operating costs of that line. Lets apply those numbers now to the 15 miles, and you're looking at barely 10% cost coverage. So tax payers pick up the burden of 90% of the costs.

The ridership during the waning days of the Conrail/Septa service, north of FC was about 300 a day. Reading operated only 4 daily trains at the peak and by 1958, was down to 2 trains daily, 1 on Saturday and Zilch on Sundays. Conrail kept the 4 trips a day, Septa added trips with the horrid "High Speed" service run by 234 members, but still did not see any increase, in fact it had dropped to 120 daily riders.

The West Chester Line to Elwyn which comes up in criticism of SEPTA, has 12 miles with 12 stations but only saw 600 daily riders when service was suspended, while the line from Elwyn to 49th Street has 14 stations in 12 heavily populated miles, and sees just over 3,400 currently.

Opponents of the Bala-Cynwyd line criticize SEPTA for running this service with only 600 daily riders and say it is a waste, but political ties keep it open.

I don't get the support of re-establishing a non revenue supported service on this Branch or the Bethlehem Branch. It would be a complete waste of money. Most people who live along the Newtown and the Bethlehem Branches, do NOT work in Center City Philadelphia. Most work in Trenton, North Jersey or New York. Those who do work in Philly, use other lines, which re-establishment of service on either of these lines, would just draw ridership away from.

The Bethlehem Branch was kept alive by the freight service from the Steel Plant to Philly...once that dried up, the line was closed and turned over what service was left to small operators and they operate where the service is needed.

The best outcome for the Newtown line is tourist related or trail.

Thanks Junior for your insight. I know there's been some people calling for the line's reopening over the past few years, but this thread really shouldn't debate that. Our group came together with the knowledge that SEPTA and Bucks County are never going to restore train service or convert it to buses. I've already spoken with several township managers and they said they don't want the trail either. There's a few who live along the line that want nothing, while most who have come to our camp have done so because they want this thing preserved, and **IF** possible, have a heritage railway put in. Again, that's an if, and that's not our focus right now. We just want to keep the line intact as a historical railroad. Because the line played a significant role in the banning of wooden cars after the 1921 tragedy, we're going to look into getting the line designated as a national historical landmark.

There's alot of locked up potential out there, and we'd be really happy if we could unlock even a small portion of it.

From what I read, you are correct about the old days. I have no idea about current population patterns though.



I know a good bit of people who live in the 309 corridor north of Hatfield, and not one of them work in Trenton, NJ or NY. All of the people that I know from there, work in the suburbs around Philly. I know many people who travel to Philadelphia, not on daily basis, but do take the train, and have to go to Lansdale to pick it up. With the explosive population growth in the 309 corridor, I believe there's a possibility that rail service could be justified.



It's a shame such a direct route from Philly to the Lehigh Valley couldn't be utilized in some capacity, especially as passenger rail between the cities. If SEPTA didn't axe their diesel operations when the CC tunnel opened, I believe it could have survived long enough to tap into the existing population boom.

I sure wish that I could take the train to Philly from Quakertown when I need to, instead of having to drive all the way down to Lansdale or Colmar.

The operating revenue cannot be derived from "occasional" passengers. It has to be based on DAILY riders - people who work within the City. The daily ridership is not there. The areas south of Newtown are sparsely populated by commuters willing to ride a train (there are plenty of opportunities to do so around the Newtown line, and those who do, do, those who don't, wont), so unless the bulk of Newtown works in Philly, its not going to pan out.

The bulk of the Fox Chase ridership comes from those who PARK in the Fox Chase station lots and ride into town. Only Ryers, Cheltenham and Lawndale Stations pull in decent walk up amounts with limited or without (Lawndale has NO parking) parking facilities. Olney may pick up since they rebuilt the station with additional parking, but I'm not holding my breath.

The Bethlehem line may have the population around it (and it is growing), but honestly, I don't see enough potential riders giving up their cars for a Daily Train into CC.

For a metro population of over 5 million (6.3 million if you include New Castle County De which has a SEPTA Rail route serving it), less than 100,000 people ride the entire regional rail system of SEPTA on a Daily Basis, (35,000,000 Riders in 2010), and for all it's knocked, it is a pretty decent system. That's not a great deal of return for the amount of people living within ear shot of rail transportation.

That 100,000 daily Regional Riders is still 170,000 less than those that drive on JUST the I-76 Corridor in the Philly and Montco Counties on a daily basis.

By Comparison, within the City and its immediate surroundings, just on the "light" RAIL (Subway, Elevated and Trolley) with its 1.7 million potential customers, over 280,000 take daily rides. That does not include the bus routes and their ridership.

SEPTA is not at fault for not wanting to dump millions into a network that doesn't show the support. They've rebuilt and continue to rebuild their current working infrastructure with the monies made available. If they took those monies and dumped it into losing lines, and allowed the old structure to further deteriorate, we would all be moaning about how SEPTA wasted money on suburban lines with no return.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Sorry if it seems as though I'm defending Septa, i'm just looking at the reality of numbers. Passenger trains lose money no matter what you do.

Now, if through freight service could again be justified on the Bethlehem branch, then I would see it happening with Passenger service to follow with enough public push, but with only 2 major rail carriers (CSX/NS) now serving the region, there are more lines than needed, so it's not going to happen.

A major on-line customer willing to contribute to the rebuilding would be the only reason to reopen the line north of EPRY's operations.

Same for the Newtown Line. No freight means no real revenue.