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 Post subject: Re: Building a new carbarn & economic realities (seeking adv
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:13 am 

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 141
Location: North Carolina USA
Dennis,
Someone can correct me but I believe the concrete columns pictured in the photographs are larger versions of what was called Sonotubes (sp?) that were essentially inexpensive reinforced fiber tubular forms. Considering the labor involved with laying concrete block, your example of these concrete columns to be done in a single pour might be a less expensive alternative to block. Maybe a pro could answer this issue of the comparative costs involved by a simple inquiry. This stuff is usually priced at a unit cost by the square foot or yard to project an estimate that is subject to both seasonal and market costs I used to do project management for a larger non profit before retiring ten years ago, so my estimates would be way off should a revised simpler design be proffered.

http://www.sonotube.com/

Matt,
I live down the road from you south of Charlotte. If you want to discuss the project, contact me. Any further advice that may be of help, I am willing to share for this project. I have handled projects in the 3-4 million dollar range and I am willing to donate ideas, advice, etc. Another bit of advice is to seek donations of raw materials in exchange for tax write offs and community recognition from local suppliers. This has been a pretty successful route to bring costs down.
Bruce


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 Post subject: Re: Building a new carbarn & economic realities (seeking adv
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:52 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
FLO wrote:
dbbii wrote:
The idea of a PEMB isn’t bad, and painting the interior steel is also good.

Absolutely paint the interior members. A good, oil-based enamel paint job that has been professionally applied, laid off, and cut in will eliminate the ugly industrial look of those red beams in the photos above.

Right concept. I would use 2-part urethanes applied by the volunteers by brush/roller.

Remember, repainting the beams later is really going to suck, since they'll be in the sky and over top of equipment. Therefore, anything you can do to extend the service life of that paint is going to be a real bargain compared with calling the scaffold company later. The lion's share of any paint job is always the man to do the prep and paint, so people who back-slap themselves for buying cheap paint are fools. So yeah, I would use the best paint out there bar none.

2-part urethanes are the only stuff I use, as a rule.

I recommend volunteer application to save the costs of the man doing the painting. I recommend brush/roller because it's fast, it eliminates the safety issues with spraying this type of paint, you get a more even coat with less expertise, and it gives much better coverage because it wastes no paint.


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 Post subject: Re: Building a new carbarn & economic realities (seeking adv
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2815
Location: Northern Illinois
Bruce Duensing wrote:
Dennis,
Someone can correct me but I believe the concrete columns pictured in the photographs are larger versions of what was called Sonotubes (sp?) that were essentially inexpensive reinforced fiber tubular forms. Considering the labor involved with laying concrete block, your example of these concrete columns to be done in a single pour might be a less expensive alternative to block. Maybe a pro could answer this issue of the comparative costs involved by a simple inquiry. This stuff is usually priced at a unit cost by the square foot or yard to project an estimate that is subject to both seasonal and market costs I used to do project management for a larger non profit before retiring ten years ago, so my estimates would be way off should a revised simpler design be proffered.

http://www.sonotube.com/

Bruce


Well, I worked in the construction trades for a number of years, and can offer some thoughts.

First off, I don't think you'll get a structural engineer to sign off on a roof supported only by concrete block posts. The roof not only has the static loads, but also shear loads caused by the wind to consider. While the block posts undoubtedly will support the roof, they may not keep it in place during a wind storm.

As to reinforced concrete posts vs. structural steel, the steel is obviously cheaper. There are innumerable steel structures of this sort in the world, and almost all stand on poured concrete foundations; if concrete columns were cheaper, they'd be done that way rather than steel. It kind of makes me wonder whey the guy who designed the structure in Stevens Point used some of each; aesthetics, I guess.

But, all this is really splitting hairs. One thing I notice is that the round columns in the original proposed structure don't appear to be part on an "engineered building" design, but rather custom. I think I would take the concept drawing, along with the size and clearance requirements, and send it off to as many steel building manufacturers as you can find, asking them to adapt their standard component system, and see how close they can come, and then see if what they propose would be acceptable, given the price difference.

On edit:

I see there is a Metal Building Systems Association web site, here is a link to a list of their members:

http://www.mbma.com/display.cfm?p=41&pp=4

I happen to own a Varco Puden building, coming up on twenty years of age and still looking good, but there are others.

_________________
Dennis Storzek


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 Post subject: Re: Building a new carbarn & economic realities (seeking adv
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:02 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:11 am
Posts: 141
Location: North Carolina USA
I would still check with the local permitting agency as far as an engineers stamp as I have worked in several states, municipalities and sometimes it's required and in a few it is not. Most architects I worked with sent the plans for that stamp. As far as steel being cheaper, you may be correct depending on what you are using steel for because it sounds like you are saying steel for the whole building. I think it would be cheaper to do concrete as a part of my suggestions, was to get raw materials donated for a tax write off and community recognition and I have found that the concrete folks are amenable to helping out. I have not worked in trying to get the steelwork donated, and again, you may be right. It sounds like a severe under projected budget and labor costs an issue. Part of what I did as a project manager for a non profit was to beat the bushes for donations of material and labor as every budget I inherited was in the same boat. Appealing to the community in preserving their history is not too much different from helping AIDS patients or the elderly as a benefit or at least one would think so.


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 Post subject: Re: Building a new carbarn & economic realities (seeking adv
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:03 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:50 pm
Posts: 2
Matt

I agree with Denis the custom nature of the original design could really drive up the cost. Let a steel building manufacturer have a shot at the design given the basic dimensions. Also seeing that the largest increase in material costs these days is in the steel try and see if you can get wood trusses incorporated into the design. Wood trusses are still common in new manufacturing. Also with any building system see if allowing them to add interior columns might lower the cost. By reducing the spans you can lighten up the truss system.

Find a good GC and just tell him "I need to build this for X dollars, what are my options?"

I work with structural engineers every day on stuff like this (a bit heavier duty) I will ask around and see what I can dig up.

Todd Hetrick


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