The idea of re-opening this branch has been discussed for the 26 years that I have lived in the area. The reality is that without some economic reason, it won't happen. As someone who in the past life at Conrail, had something to do with the sale of branch lines, I have an appreciation for the economic reasons to keep or discard a line. I looked at an old map and found that there were some sidings in and around the industrial park next the James Way. The Oscar Huber siding NOT included. This could mean potetial grades do exist for service. I did see in this park that there was an extremely heavy load on one of those "million axle" trailers so I think that a heavy industry might be in there. The tariff on those loads are "cubic dollars". So the first thing is to look for are potential freight customers.

Then you have to look at the Trenton Cutoff in the area. Acme Cardboard Box is a potential customer and I think that there is even a grade to their plant. But NS has not made any attempt to service them locally. Then you have Tinari who would originate many C&D loads to the midwest dumps. This is another potential "volume" customer. But in the rail industry, you have a very expensive part of the service. This is the first mile and the last mile. You need a local crew with a regular job. There are few if not NO reamining patrons on that line. So event 10 cars a day won't be an incentive. Even sharing a day of an existing crew isa recurring cost that happens with or without freight. It does not happen "on demand".

If these folks are serious about this, there is a very well known columnist in Trains Mag with the initials of RB who is the ultimate expert in shortline economics that could help you with a business model. He is a friend of mine and someone whom I have done business with. I made the deal with him to open up the Nittany and Bald Eagle. So I know what he can do.

Then, even if you did have an economic case, you would most likely have to knock down a business to get the required curve to come off the high line. I have no idea if any connect is feasible.

It is always interesting to read these posts. Once can always dream. Some dreams do happen.

Al

Al, the folks who started this thread are only interested in preserving the line's historical aspects, not any type of operations, at least in terms of profitable, and any operations are way down the line.

Most of this thread is about why SEPTA let it go and hasn't put effort into rebuilding the Newtown line or the Bethlehem branch, of which neither have the supported passenger or freight base at this time or any time in the distant future. That may change down the line, but its not something that is showing any potential right now.

Not everyone believes that or accepts that, to each his own.

The group spearheading this, simply wants to clean up and preserve what is left in terms of artifacts, the historical aspect of the Wood Car laws that came about after the accident on this line, and down the line, possibly offer a short excursion to Lorimer Park.

I still say they should contact local Rail/track Car operators to bring in their speeders to help clear the line for "rare mileage use"....easier than doing it on foot.

And there ARE a lot of NIMBYs along that line. Clearing it for speeder operation would accomplish the group's goal with the least amount of NIMBY complaint- though I'm sure they would still complain.

As an aside, I moved back to the area in 1978. SEPTA was actively trying to rent out unused stations & I put in a bid for Southampton station. They only wanted $250 a month. Sadly my bid was rejected because I wanted to live there. No residental bids were being accepted- only for business/office use.

I've actually been contacted by a shortline railroad in the region that wants to help out. I'm not saying they want to run freight, but those cards have been discussed, and there is potential to generate about 600 carloads from one business alone.

We are aware of the NIMBYs and who they are, and the operative word for them is respecting their wishes and minimizing any impact that our preservation goals might cause. When we move forward, we'll be going out of our way to have a dialogue with these people and do our best to make our project an improvement to their quality of life.

A correction to the last post, we have discussed running an excursion to Tamanened Park in Upper Southampton, which is only about 2 miles or less, and could initially be done with speeders. Another Southampton resident has a loftier goal of a victorian trolley to the park leaving from a restored Southampton Station to various activities that happen in the park each summer.

Most of us in our group would probably oppose any SEPTA effort to reopen the line as it would damage the historic character of the line. If and when heritage trains run down to Bryn Athyn, we'd want to maintain that character as we ride through death gultch while a historian tells the story of that sad day in 1921. Freight service wouldn't change that too much, but we're not looking to do that, though it would probably provide some economic incentive that helps preserve the active railway.

Does anyone know if segments of or entire corridors have ever been designated as a national historic landmark before? That's one of our ideas, or at least having death gultch listed as a historic location.

The contributions from all are much appreciated!

If you goal is minimizing NIMBY complaint while doing what you do, then I predict you will fail because you have not actually gotten them on-board (so to speak) with supporting your project. Then you have NO NIMBYs and in-fact the locals will actively support and promote your very interesting project.

Yes it is a really neat historical artifact of a branch line that has happened to survive because of some sort of fluke. Realize that most people care about what they know about. I think, given the amount of clearing along the tracks by existing dog walkers, that you need to acknowledge this is already a trail. My suspicion was confirmed by the detail in the lower left of this photo:


So it is being used by a trail, and it is a treasured, valued experience to walk through the woods. Reviving rail service (whether speeder, doodlebug, or train) will need to separate the pedestrians from the railroad. If you give them no alternative and effectively ban them from their adopted corridor, I do not predict you will succeed at getting these people to support you.

The good news is that, yes, trails and rails can go hand in hand. It does not have to be either-or as so often was promoted since the 1980s.

http://www.leancrew.com/all-this/2011/08/argonne-bike-ride/

I completely agree. I think there are many instances where railway preservationists covet a dormant railroad that is also coveted by the trail types.

In this situation, I believe the right answer is for the rail people to build a parallel trail in a position which does not interfere with the railroad. Why the frack would we do that??? Because it takes all pressure off the railroad proper.

And because we are capable of it. Understand that railway preservation people are builders and makers. Rail lines are restored via hard effort. Trail people, on the other hand, are lobbyists who are incapable of manual labor and require government megabucks to get their trail built. That means the railroad people can get the trail done BEFORE the trail people wangle their financing. "It's an access road."

I wasn't going to post again, but that's what really irks me about SEPTA's approach to the Bethlehem Branch. It was a double tracked railroad, so why didn't they just remove one track for the trailies, and leave one track in so that the corridor was still preserved as a railroad? (Okay, I'll answer my own question: it was likely about the scrap value of the steel and making it more difficult to ever restore service.)

600 car loads is decent (projections vs actual will differ), but is not enough to make any money for a 15 mile branch and pay employees or to pay a regional road to service your customer...1500-1700 cars would be enough to maintain your operations (a transload facility somewhere along the line would generate enough cars, but your hoity-toity neighbors would not like that)...600 is decent if you used volunteers, but your customers may not like that idea, nor might the FRA.

When Conrail took over service, there were still 5 customers on the line, and they generated less than 300 carloads a year.




Yeah, sorry about that. I had the two parks confused...



...just don't make it too depressing for families!...lol.



Yes, the Wilmington & Western in Delaware had its entire line, bridges, and most of its equipment all registered as a National Historic Landmark back in the 1980's. It's part of what helped save the line after 2 major floods (and a very VERY decent support system from its neighbors/hoods)

It sounds like you want to preserve the historic fabric of the line, but also do want to look at it as a potential business down the road. For freight service, you will have to upgrade the line, upgrade crossing and regular signal systems, tear out things that are old and replace with new... basically do what SEPTA would have to do if they reinstated passenger service. For example; If you haul any type of hazardous materials, in addition to ticking off NIMBY's and environmentalists (since operations are through the Pennypack watershed), you will have to have all grade crossings upgraded to current standards with flashers and gates.

PS. I noticed on your sight that it has a picture of the crossing at Terwood Road and list it as a Wig Wag....I have seen photos of that crossing in operations and always showed regular flashers on the cantilever...in fact, they had been on there until the 1990's....was it a wig wag back in the early days...photos?

Junior, thanks again for the contribution. The really, really hard part in all of this is keeping from getting to ahead of the present goal, which is just to preserve the line, as it is, minus the garden. Yes it would be great to look at it as a business venture, or excursion trains to Fox Chase or Bethayres. Hec, someone associated with NHIR even suggested steam excursions from New Hope to Newtown via Bethayres someday. All great ideas, but not something within anyone's capability right now.

Knowing the W&W has a historical designation is a good place for us to start looking. I've ridden that a few times.

One of our members lives in Bryn Athyn and his dad told us Terwood's cantelivers used to be wig-wags, way back when, probably pre-1965. If I'm ever privy to a photo, I'll be sure to add it to our small but growing archive on our website.

I am glad that someone is lookin at the business scenario. If, for some reason, there is a connection made with the NS Trenton Cut-off, a NS crew would have to service the interchange. Therefore additional customers would be needed to justify a crew assignment. So the industrial development effort will also have to be off-line as well.

The Bethayres connection would probably not have that issue with the additional freight or the interchange since I think that the new carrier now owns the freight rights on the SEPTA lines. I could be wrong about that. But that interchange would become mired in environmental concerns and a very expensive turnout even if it is only electrically locked.

The residents in Bethayres will fight this tooth and nail and as I recall were instrumental in the death of the line as well.

SEPTA would never recover any investment in service restoration even though it is very hard to commute from the immediate area around the line. You do have very dense population in that area so that is good. I think that fining areas for parking is going to be hard. Since the line is single iron, you would need to stage trains as you could not easily replenish the trains for rush hour. Then even if there was service on a single track line, the frequency is what kills the service.

Back in the late 80's there was going to be a test of a rail bus and SEPTA even re-installed the diamonds. I rode the R3 for 15 years so I know that this happened. The line was cleared but the test did not happen.

I think that the best option is to try to open up the entire line from Fox Chase even with the cost of removing some bumping blocks. That is a "minor" expense as compared with building new interchanges.

I really enjoy reading about the CMR in this interchange. They seem to have the right formula to get things done. This sounds like a good role model here.

Al

CMR is a good model, but totally different local climate...as you said, there are reasons why service was not restored in the 90s to Newtown and those politically connected people still hold reigns in the area.

Insular operation is best option right now, and as Budd said, getting the garden cleaned up is the first step. Slowly re engaging rail service via track cars is the best way to be non intrusive on the neighbors and gradually introduce them to something plying the rails after 30 years of non-activity.

Al...that rail bus test, and several others did happen in and around September of 1985, successfully, but the ride quality was not there, nor was the funding.

Picture of the test car at Huntingdon Valley Station....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HV_leyland_wyc.jpg

Junior and Conopt_rail: as a quick aside, what is the CMR model? Thanks in advance.

Catskill Mountain Railroad and their effort to restore to operation 20 miles of long abandoned rail, most of which has suffered far more damage by mother nature, than the Newtown Line.

thank you

See also the Niles Canyon Railway, which has done things that'll curl your toes. New grade crossings? New bridges? New interchange? No problem.

Or the Michigan Transit Museum, which leased the railroad into Selfridge field... but there lies a cautionary tale. Their landlord kicked them out.

This presents a serious problem when it comes to making off-rail capital investments, e.g. yards, carbarns or even simply the expense of moving a car to the location.

By the way, station upkeep is a really good role for a burgeoning group. If you do that, here's a clever way volunteers can raise revenue, especially if you can get SEPTA to pay the electric bill. At any location with any amount of casual foot traffic, get a Coke machine. Coke is unbelievably easy to deal with. You supply a location with a 120VAC plug, they deliver the machine and repair it. You load the product, you take the money. The only hitch is you must buy the product from them but they deliver and the prices are fair, especially considering they are lending you a free machine. The other neat thing is you can sell any product the Coke distributor carries, which includes a lot of healthier options. I have Honest Tea in my machine along with Vitamin Water XXX and Dasani.