I have heard there is a ban, imposed by somebody, on shipping ANY of the now surplus heritage trams in Melbourne outside of the continent of Australia. Is this true? If so, why? Can anyone elaborate on this rumor? Thanks

Because the tram firm is a private entity and selling all the historic trams abroad would be one way of forever precluding operation of a money-losing historic tram line.

Kind of like demolishing a historic building before it receives preservation status.

The real reason is a classic case of bureaucracy gone silly. Some years ago, when there were lots of Melbourne trams being sold off overseas- mostly for tourist lines, but some to collectors and museums- somebody here decided that that was terribly wrong. In an attempt to set things right, the entire remaining fleet was classified by the National Trust. That now means that they can't be used for any purpose other than what they were built for. They can't be disposed of- for any purpose, this includes historic donation to museums. It has meant that they must be maintained and not allowed to deteriorate. This has been achieved by storing virtually the entire remaining fleet in some buildings at the Newport Railway workshops. It is still a major operating facility so is subject to being guarded and undercover so more than 300 trams remain in an almost perfect "as withdrawn" state of preservation. There is no access to these trams by anyone other than the occasional workshop employee and security guards.

Regards
Wes

One result was that several cars purchased by an American dealer / reseller were stranded in Australia. I believe a lawsuit has sort of semiunsatisfactorily resolved that one. So, apart from the Tramcar Restaurant and Bendigo, where are all those W cars to go?

dave

One tram that left Melbourne before the embargo/national treasure designation went to England, where it's now a garden house on the estate of Sir Elton John (I mention this because, as far as I know, there are no plans to build a railway for it, and my favorite band has done several Elton John tribute shows). A car that left "down under" within the last year or so is MMT 916, which is now part of the San Francisco Muni fleet. As I recall, some fairly high-level inter-govermental arrangements were required to complete this transfer. It does seem that some compromise could be reached to allow at least a few more trams to "emigrate", but governments all over the world are notorious for generating "zero tolerance" policies so the bureaucrats and lower-level employees don't have to make decisions. This situation prevails in areas of interest far removed from tramcars.

SF Muni also has Melbourne W-2 496 (acquired 1987).

WRM has MMTB W-2 648. It was purchased by the SF Chamber of Commerce in 1983 for the first S.F. Trolley Festival (a "replacement tourist attraction" for the cable cars during their rebuilding). WRM purchased it from the Chamber in 1984 after the Muni decided not to do so.

The comments here about bureaucracy, tram counts, status, and condition do not match with the news reports from Australia. For example:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/minister-in-wclass-trams-out-20100121-mo95.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/wclass-trams-prized-overseas-but-a-vanishing-species-here-20101016-16ods.html

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/wclass-not-made-for-modern-commuting-20110506-1ebmq.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/one-track-minds-missing-big-picture-of-wclass-20100810-11y9b.html

Variously, the ban on tram exports reflects various real political factions that hope to return these trams to service. On the other hand, others sincerely would like daily service to be with modern trams. The wooden trams are not maintained by the private operator at standards that are pleasing to all, so "perfect preservation" needs clarity in definition. And it appears, but I did not verify, that some of these trams were still in service on a few lines recently and may still be in service on a few lines in addition to the tourist circle route.

The factions that wish these return to service accurately predict that if they leave Australia, they will never come back.

I have nothing wrong with wanting to bring the old cars back into service. In all honesty, I would support that then selling cars over here in the states for parts and service!
However, with the W2 class being originally over 400 strong on their own, and adding in all the remaining W class "Trams", that leaves alot of cars after retirement.

So, not to be rude or anything, but does it realy do any good to have that many cars (Acording to earlier posts and where from 200 to over 300 still owned by the MMTB)sitting around?

Preserving History? Yes, so kudos for that.

But having essentialy a surplus of cars that you can't/won't do anything with? The joys of politics.



Just my few cents.

It appears the Australian debate is whether preservation is a few cars running a tourist loop downtown, or fully rostering a complete line like the St. Charles line in New Orleans, or the cable car system in San Francisco.

I argue if they wished to fully roster a line, they would need a large proportion of these cars, both to cannibalize them for parts and because they would have a higher out of service time as they become more fragile. Some factions even seek more than one line "preserved".

Now that would be something to see! However, what exactly does the term "preservation" apply to here? The cars still running in Melbourne (on the loop and on the last remaining line(s)) have been modified a bit, most notibly the addition of a pantograph instead of trolley poles. I imagine that any cars returning to service would need the modifications made to the already operating cars. In addition, handicap accessability apears to be of high priority over there, which would mean you would either have to
A)
Modify the cars to be more handicap friendly, whether that means adding a wheelchair lift or redesigning the entrances to the cars entirley, Or...
B)
Provide some sort of "Parrallel" route that uses handicap accessible vehicles. Ie: Paratransit, Bus Routes, etc.

Also, on another note, I noticed a few things that the news articles actualy got wrong. At one point, one article mentions directly that the cars STILL running on regular lines "...date from after World War One..." and the others illude to this as well. That pertains to the Original "W" through "W-2" classes, of which I'm not even sure they run regularly on their "Tourist Loop", much less in regular service. The ones still running, if I get this right, are from the SW-6 class and higher. Meaning the oldest they can be is right before and/or after World War Two. Which is still old in transit terms don't get me wrong, but they arn't the age the News keeps saying they are.

Also, I know the W's were all built and mostly ran as two man cars. Anyone know if they ones still in service are still two man crewed? Or have they been modified to be one man, like the other cars in Melbourne's Tram fleet?

There are a lot of numbers and such being thrown about.

A little research suggests that there were as many as 752 built between 1923 and 1956. As best I can tell there are currently 230 cars, with 51 officially in service (but reports suggest not all are, with maybe 26 currently used) 12 are used in the tourist oriented circle service, while the others are used on two smaller lines.

There were 305 cars in 1990.

In 1993 there was an agreement to keep 53 in service, and 50 in reserve for special events.

It appears there isn't a real embargo, but more an agreement between the parties, with the Historic groups wanting to preserve service, and the contract for profit tram operator preferring not to (beyond the circle line) Some trams have left since the "Embargo" including one to Denmark in 2005, and one recently to San Francisco.

Reports also suggest that many of the stored trams have been cannibalized for parts, and there isn't really a barn full of trams ready to go if you put the poll up.

The wiki page for Melbourne Trams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Melbourne seems to be particularly well researched and footnoted.


Randy

Lots of stuff coming out here and if I am to take it that the Wiki site is correct, I am prepared to concede that perhaps my memory was incorrect about the figure- 200 instead of 300.

Now with that said, can I make a few clarifications please. First, please don't quote stories from The Age newspaper as gospel. It is a left leaning paper that can never be accused of letting the truth get in the way of a good story!

The state of (as withdrawn) preservation which I mentioned means exactly that. The stored tram's condition has been maintained in the same state as the day they were withdrawn due to undercover, vandal free storage in the rail workshops. It is not museum quality preservation and as you know this type of equipment is subjected to vandalism in service and that condition is how they are today.

The current W class in service, whether they be on the City Circle route or the Restaurant Tram service or promotional on some of the very last built units on a popular line, are indeed slated for withdrawal and again the National Trust is somehow involved. It would be nice to see them survive in service but they can't. Melbourne's trams are heavily used and very modern (generally), to even think about putting these old trams back in service would be like putting old stillwell coaches back into commuter service. A romantic notion but not very practical.

There was a query about one or two man operation, the only ones I have seen in service are currently one man due to the City Circle service being free so no need for a conductor. All of our later model trams have a ticketing system installed which put hundreds of "connies" out of work some years ago.

Regards
Wes