How Would You React?

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

nathansixchime wrote:

The opposite of global vision is tunnel vision, and tunnel vision would marginalize this as a "railroad science project" if the originators of the project meant for it to be an excuse to "play train" as Mr. Wardale seems to believe the 614-T tests ultimately became.

Many of the digital luxuries we enjoy today came from being developed within projects that were larger, wilder, and sometimes rife with utter disappointments, but that never ruled out the individual advances made in each respective technology, even if the parts were ultimately stronger or more successful than the whole.

KL

Obviously many programs have had byproducts and offshoots. There's a reason the original microwave oven was called a "Radar Range", and it's not because Corporal O'Reilly invented it.

However, many parts of the program seem to fall into the "Play Trains" category and have little practical value to other fields.

> Equip it with a modern high tech boiler:
Lots of other applications, but falls under the "been there, done that" category unless they've got some new angle. Even if they do, there's no reason to put the boiler on rails... All you need to do is show your boiler produces more BTU's for less energy. The right folks will find you if you do.

> Equip it with modern, light weight running gear:
Seems to be limited to steam loco tech...

> Add a gas producer combustion system and computerized firing controls:
Same as the boiler, nice tech, but it's been done....

> Make it more efficient than a modern diesel electric locomotive:
This is the most problematic. From all indications, it's simply not possible. The only way to do it is to put the boiler(s) in a power plant and string overhead catenary. Otherwise, the laws of thermodynamics are not on your side. If thsy were, the railroads would still be running steam.

> Set the world's speed record for reciprocating steam locomotives
> Test the thing at 130 mph at "the Pueblo Test Track"
Cool factor? Off the charts!
Practicality and use in other fields? Too small to measure.
Will it make for great PR? You betcha! Will it have a practical application? Well, maybe, but only if you manage to find a loophole in the laws of thermodynamics and can create a new high speed steam powered bullet train.

By the way, I do think it would be possible to test it at Pueblo, if you could provide the proper insurance etc. After all, it is a test track, and they have done high speed tests before. Of course how large of a volume of cubic dollars you'd need is the big question.

Don't get me wrong, I think steam is wonderful! But this program is the railroad equivelant of saying "We're going to build a Corvette that gets better mileage than a Prius!"

nathansixchime · **Joined:** Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:03 pm **Posts:** 948

Bob,

I appreciate your point, but you are reciting the original post which isn't quoting the official press materials. In fact, a large portion of those forthcoming materials have to do with the outgrowth tech, though yes, they plan to substantially modify the locomotive.

The outgrowth technologies and scalable applications are part and parcel to the desire to create more efficient, cleaner, and faster locomotives -- and the practicality may exist more in the end uses, which can be various, and the end game is to not rise zombified steam locomotives from the dead. I'd venture that this project is more about setting standards and showing what is achievable light years beyond making 3463 the "Avenging Steam Locomotive" or the "614-T that never was."

The country's railroad system isn't even ready for "faster," but there are boilers around that don't just run on wheels, which is part of the scalable applications that the project intends to realize.

But what will get the world interested faster -- a steam generating boiler in a power plant in Appalachia or a 1937 steam locomotive purported to go over 130 miles an hour?

And if this all happens the way its intended, we can say "You built a what out of DeLorean?"

Kelly

jasonsobczynski · **Posted:** Tue May 15, 2012 11:21 pm

Kelly,

I wish rypn could be equipped with a "like" button for posts such as yours!

Cheers, Jason

daylight4449 · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 7:18 am

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

whodom wrote:

If this group is serious about raising the bar compared to previous steam, it's better to start with a blank slate.

I think the saying goes, "Raise up the whistle and replace everything underneath it."

I wonder if something based off of Tornado would be worth the effort. If the Peppercorn A1 design could be modified to meet these criteria, then this project could become more plausable. I say that considering the overall success that Tornado has garnered over the last 4 years (ok, minus the problem with the boiler stays).

whodom · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 8:37 am

daylight4449 wrote:

I wonder if something based off of Tornado would be worth the effort. If the Peppercorn A1 design could be modified to meet these criteria, then this project could become more plausable. I say that considering the overall success that Tornado has garnered over the last 4 years (ok, minus the problem with the boiler stays).

Probably not for U.S. service as it would be a very small locomotive compared to most of our mainline steam. If you DO want to build such a locomotive, some time after the A1 project was announced, L.D. Porta prepared a ~150 page document detailing how a greatly improved steam locomotive could be built within the basic outer appearance and dimensions of the A1. He obviously spent considerable time studying the original design's weaknesses and his paper would be an excellent road map at how to go about improving an A1. A summary of this paper is available at Martyn Bane's site: http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/60163/60163.htm

Another relevant project in the UK is the 5AT Project, which seeks to build a greatly improved steam locomotive within the outline of the British Railways Class 5 4-6-0 design. Having accepted that the required funding will not be forthcoming any time soon, the group recently announced the suspense of their efforts to build a new mainline steamer for the UK, but they still hope to participate in other steam projects. Read more about it here: http://www.5at.co.uk/

BTW- isn't the locomotive in Topeka actually #3463?

cjvrr · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 12:00 pm

"Zombified Steam Locomotives"

I love that term!

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

Quote:

But what will get the world interested faster -- a steam generating boiler in a power plant in Appalachia or a 1937 steam locomotive purported to go over 130 miles an hour?

I guess it depends on your intended audience.

"The world's fastest steam locomotive" sounds like a Discovery Channel show. Great ratings, and lots of interest, but from the general public, and next week they'll be excited about the world's fastest tractor.

An improved boiler in a lab under controlled conditions is far more likely to inspire serious investors. They could take the project to the next level.

After the whole "cold fusion" fiasco, folks aren't going to be easily impressed.

whodom · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 1:09 pm

Bobharbison wrote:

The world's fastest steam locomotive" sounds like a Discovery Channel show. Great ratings, and lots of interest, but from the general public, and next week they'll be excited about the world's fastest tractor.

Years ago I said (and even tried to interest "Trains" in a tongue-in-cheek article on the subject) that it's a pity the "motorsports" community hasn't gotten interested in locomotives. They've certainly hot-rodded everything else from motor scooters to swamp buggies to tractors to 18-wheelers.

I stilll think someone should lease the unused track over Saluda Grade and having pulling competitions there...

Dave · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 1:38 pm

Western Maryland 6 wins. No contest.

Again, Stephensonian steam is too front-loaded with built-in inefficiencies to be a contender in an efficiency contest, except against other Stephensonian locomotives, which we don't widely use any longer for just that reason.

dave

whodom · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Dave wrote:

Western Maryland 6 wins. No contest.

dave

Until somebody pulls a Willamette out of a park in Washington, adds a 4th truck and water tank, ballasts it with an extra 50 tons, puts a 300 PSI boiler on it, Lempor exhaust, etc. and reduces the gearing by 50%. :-)

I'd pay good money to see that!

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

whodom wrote:

Until somebody pulls a Willamette out of a park in Washington, adds a 4th truck and water tank, ballasts it with an extra 50 tons, puts a 300 PSI boiler on it, Lempor exhaust, etc. and reduces the gearing by 50%. :-)

Which brings me to my next question... How do you define a "steam locomotive"?

Can we build a "Reverse Heisler"? What's that? Same general concept as a regular Heisler but instead of gear reduction it uses gears to increase the speed of the drive wheels. Won't pull worth a dang, but it will run like a raped ape.

Geared engines don't count? Well then, how about a 4-4-0 with 144 inch drivers? Again, a bit on the slippery side (there's an understatement) but fast!

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

The website for this project has gone live.

http://www.csrail.org/

Quote:

Coalition for Sustainable Rail (CSR), a collaboration of the University of Minnesota (U of M) and Sustainable Rail International (SRI), will work towards the creation of the world's first carbon-neutral test locomotive, one capable of out-performing any passenger rail diesel-electric on the market today. As its first major step towards completion, SRI acquired a test bed steam locomotive via a transfer of ownership from the Great Overland Station, a world-class restored train depot and museum in Topeka, Kansas in November, 2011. The locomotive, Santa Fe steam locomotive 3463 (CSR 3463), is a 1937-built, high-speed locomotive that will be completely modernized. Once transported to the Twin Cities, the locomotive will undergo a complete engineering review, modification and reconstruction.

The University of Minnesota's NRRI and IonE will work with SRI to perfect the torrefaction production system. The plan is to engineer biocoal not only to power the test locomotive in operation, but also to supplement or replace fuel used in U of M-owned steam and power plants.

Once its modernization is complete, CSR 3463 will have little in common with the smoke-belching steam engine it once was. Featuring a gas-producer combustion system, improved steam circuit, modern boiler, low-maintenance running gear and steam-powered electric generator (to power the passenger train), CSR 3463 will be able to pull a passenger train with electric-like performance for less than the cost of diesel-electric locomotives. In order to further prove the viability of biocoal and modern steam technology, CSR plans to test the locomotive in excess of 130 miles per hour, out-performing any existing diesel-electric on the market and breaking the world steam speed record. In light of this achievement, CSR has named this endeavor: “Project 130.”

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Wed May 23, 2012 8:45 am

Just linking a related page:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24112