an active discussion on the NKP Yahoo group on this car to try to save it, move it,

here goes.

Got this from a friend of mine:

The old open platform parlor car, originally from the "Toledo St.
Louis & Western Railroad" (nee.Clover Leaf) or ex. NKP business car
#3, is not going to come to the Bellevue, Ohio museum to be restored
after all. Originally, they were going to "substitute" some trucks
from the museum that happen to be currently "government compliant" for
the "Quicksteps" trucks and have it hauled out here by rail. They have
found out that the Quickstep's brake system is frozen up solid and not
serviceable. So the only other alternative was to pick the thing up
and either "flat car it" or "truck it" out to the museum. That would
add another estimated $30000-$40000 to the cost. After considering
this and again examining the car, they don't think that it would
survive being "lifted."

It is believed that as far as the "Toledo St. Louis & Western
Railroad" goes, that this is the ONLY surviving piece of rolling stock
left in existence from that railroad and this car was ordered from
Pullman and specifically built for that railroad.

The inside of the car itself is still over 95% intact as built going
from the Pullman floor plans. (I located builder photos for the inside
and outside of the car in the Smithsonian Pullman Collection.)

Also, it has the original "new" platform design that was later
modified by Pullman and used on cars like the Wabash had.

They have decided that they are going to "strip" the car in order to
make a representative display at the museum and most likely the rest
of the car will be scrapped.

That price sounds awfully damn high to me. It sounds like a quote from a wildly gesticulating naysayer. As in, one guy goes 'Well you can't do THAT. It would cost 30 or 40 thousand dollars to do that!" And then somebody else passes that number along as if it were a real quote from a real mover.

I wonder if that is this car. I saw them doing a truck swap on it last September.

They definitely need to get someone who has some knowledge on moving cars. From the looks, the bozo that said it would break has NO experience lifting cars. We moved a wooden 1902 coach that had 10' sections removed on each side, including the steel interior truss. It took two cranes and a stretch, droop deck trailer. Unless the car is a through and through rot(roof and floor) they are pretty tough.

I am going to take this as an accurate number. I have enough real world experience doing this, and take in the fact that Ohio has more restrictive over height permit requirements, this is a fair number. Crane costs alone would be at least $3k to $4K at each end, and then you have to truck each 3 axle truck separately, and these are permit required loads as well.

From my limited knowledge of the car, I think it could move down the tracks from what I have been told. However, without a few hours to look it over, I can't say for sure.

It sounds like they jumped into the project without an accurate cost, and bailed when the real costs surfaced. It is the car in the picture.

I have issues with the entire scenario presented here. Assume that some of the original comments are correct, the car is on connected track,the new owners have a set of roller bearing trucks and, there is a "friendly" mainline carrier. Brake system stuff ain't cheap, but you could replace the whole system for whole lot less than the trucking costs if there are no other issues that would preclude passing a mechanical inspection. If there are issues other than the brakes and wheels, why aren't they looking at flatcar movement?

I've been following the post's on the NKP Yahoo forum on this car along with the ones just put on RPN and if this car is thought to be the only surviving T St.L.& W. car left in existance,then why isn't something seriously being done to get the car preserved? or maybe they'd rather loose it to history like NKP coach #54.

The decision to strip a 95% intact Pullman car to make a represenative display at the museum and then scrap the rest of the car is a very poor decision.One of the Yahoo post's even mentioned that somebody in Florida had even donated $10,000 to save the car.If i was that person i don't think i'd be happy to know that the money was going to be used to just save some portions to make a display! Another post mentioned the museum can't handle what they have now.I alway's thought that Bellevues museum had a first class RR museum with well taken care of equipment that looked nice from the times i visited over the years.

This troubles me somewhat if that comment is true.If so what's going to happen in the next 10-20 years after current museum volunteers hit their senior years and can no longer maintain the equipment? Is there a plan to recruit younger volunteers to take care of the collection after they pass?

Is there a deadline that the car has to be removed from the property where it now sits? Seems like alot of peticulars are not being brought up front other than what it would cost to move it.I would think they would want to start an immediate fundraising campaign of some sort to save the darn car.If that RR group in NY was able to raise $10,000 to buy that Lehigh Valley caboose and move it in just a few months wich in reality is only a 1941 steel northeastern cab with 65 sister LV cabooses still surviving versus a museum that has the ability and option to save and preserve a rather rare and only known remaining T St.L.& W car 95% intact who would instead settle for just pcs. of the car for a represenative display? Something just doesn't make sense here?

Fritz -

I am a bit confused here (what new?). Is the Mad River & NKP Museum in Bellevue, Ohio the current owners of the car? If not, then who is?

Les

The numbers for the move appear to be accurate. I was incharge of moving a project car within Pennsylvania 6 years ago. It cost in the neighborhood of $3000 at each end for the 50 ton cranes including the permitting to have them come on site over the roads. The cost of 2 beam trailers including permits for a 22 ton car was in the neighborhood of $4000. One trailer for the trucks and one for the car body. Yes, to move it by flatcar was a good deal cheaper, but there were security and time factors plus clearance requirements that had to be less than Plate C height. Plus, there was a site supervisor to oversee the lift at each end. Total with the cranes was about $15,000. That was for a 150 mi more. To make a similar move across several states had a quote of $26,000 just for the truck and trailers. These costs did not include the cost of cacooning the car like a boat.

Les, From what i was reading i thought the car was supposed to go to Bellevue.I honestly don't know who owns the car? Maybe were all slightly confused on what exactly is happening to the old car.Regardless of who owns it or where it may or may not go i would think this car would have some real historic value in the RR preservation world and that a major attempt should be made if it is in fact the sole remaining car from the T.St.L. & W RR and if it's 95% intact? I could see the scrapping issue if it was a gutted shell but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Can anyone elaborate more on the specifics on the car and is moving it by highway the only option being looked at since all the price estimates seem to point that direction? As Gary mentioned wouldn't replacing the brake system be cheaper if it could move by rail?

It takes more than having acceptable trucks and working brakes to move an old car by rail. You have to have a single car brake test, the system has to have a COT&S, no asbestos on the car, and an inspection by the various railroad mechanical departments due to age, and the age alone may be enough to prevent movement in a consist. Also, you don't want the car moved within the consist due to damage to the draft gear, etc. The ELDCPS just moved their car from the mid-west to Scranton, and they can give you more than enough info on what it takes to move a car on its wheels vs. on a a flatcar or depressed center flat car.

I'll attempt to be diplomatic, but this post is just flat misleading and does not reflect accurately the realities of moving a passenger car. There are NO interchange rules for passenger cars and haven't been for a good while. The mechanical standards for passenger car moves are determined by the various carriers and do vary from one to the next. Working brakes is normally (but not always) determined by a single car test which would be the "T" in COT&S. I have never seen a car refused over asbestos, and I'd love to see the car inspector doing a thorough inspection for this "defect" -- perhaps he'll look at the valve stem packing in my faucets? I haven't seen an all steel car in otherwise decent shape refused due to age -- I don't believe the FRA has an age limitation on passenger cars like exists for freight. If its not in the train's consist then how is it going to move? Levitation? Free floating? Normally these days they are almost universally moved at or near the rear of the consist. Frankly, with a car like ELDCPS just moved, I always prefered being on the head end with appropriate limits on trailing tonnage. And yes, some places it is as simple as acceptable trucks and working brakes.

ETA

It really would be nice to have a "like" feature here on RYPN. ETA couldn't have said it any better.

Best,
Mike

Once again, we find ourselves at the intersection of a professional, someone who knows what they are talking about, and someone who doesn't.

Well said ETA.

Moving DL&W diner 469 was a two year effort for us. The biggest challenge was finding people who were willing to be away from home long enough to get the job done right. Since we will be operating the car on a reasonably busy short line it was in our interest to have the car be in fully operable condition so even though working on the car remotely no doubt cost more than doing it in Scranton it was still a lot cheaper than craning the car onto a flatcar and then still having to do the work on the car once it got here. Since it sounds like this business car will be a display piece it might make sense not to move it on its on rails.