I came across this story recently. While I did not think about it at the time, I have since decided it has some ideas that are relevant to our activities.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2 ... alk_gopnik

Basically it says that popular entertainment tends to reflect the nostalgic inclinations of those making decisions in the entertainment business. If entertainment execs average 40-50 years old, they will produce entertainment that recalls the time of their early youths from about 40 years ago. The railway preservation implications should be self apparent.

While I do not entirely agree with this "rule" (where is all the 1970s stuff?) there is something to the argument. What role should our own nostalgia play in our decisions? Any? What does this mean for equipment that saw its heyday long before the 1960s? Will new volunteers always be more inclined to work on equipment that was a part of their childhoods? I know many feel we need to start preserving F40s and pointless arrows, and some organizations have begun this work. Is that sustainable? How do we get people interested in the exotic contraptions of the 1900s? Will all the heavyweights be left to rust for lack of interest?

Personally, I was susceptible to the nostalgia of an older generation of fans while growing up. In the 1980s, the railroading of the 1940s and 50s seemed to be where it was at, or had been. Now, I find I could not care less about the railroads of my early youth (the early 1970s). I have a lot more interest in what was happening in the 1870s or the 1920s. I know many in this avocation have similar history-driven interests in time periods they never saw, but it seems to be the exception. More recently, I have had a number of discussions with people that are quite attracted to preserving the trains of the 1960s and would like to repaint equipment built in the 1950s to reflect how it appeared in during their youths. How much stuff is truly relevant from this time period considering it needs to be preserved along with everything we have already preserved, as well as the stuff from the 1970s and 80s that will soon be next?

So, once again, should we (must we?) indulge this desire to relive the past, and can we reasonably do so while preserving what we are already struggling to hold on to?

R

You want to see where this plays out most certainly?

Antique automobiles.

As I understand it, people with any truly vintage (i.e. pre-WW2) antique autos aside from the highest-class Dusenbergs, etc. are having trouble finding buyers for their cars, whereas the people now most active in the hobby are showing up at car shows with 1950s, 1960s, and even 1970s cars.

You see it in radio a lot. When I was in my 20s, all the 'oldies' stations played music from the 50s. Right now, the 'oldies' on most radio stations are focusing on the late 70s and 80s, and now are starting to get into the early 90s. That's because the target market for most radio is men from 30-50, and that's what they listened to as kids. Anyone older than that isn't in their ad target.
True, I take my WW2 Jeep to two car shows a year and I've been hearing this very thing, it's tough to sell even a nice prewar car, but stuff that was new when I was a kid (from the 70s and 80s) doesn't stay for sale for very long.
Now all this said, I'd suggest that generally steam is always a draw for people, no matter what age they are, because generally most of the public didn't pay attention to trains once steam left the rails, only us train fans did. If you focused on early Amtrak, you won't get as many people in your museum as you would with steam. I suggest that steam, to a degree, is timeless. You just don't see an average non-railfan at a musum running past a steam engine, shouting, "Oh my God, they have a GP-30 here, too!"

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

The Steampunk culture is HUGE, and lot of these folks are stating to hit middle age and have some disposable income. Steam rail preservationists should be working real hard on figuing out how to make them dispose of their income with us!

Or we can all just sit around like in Field of Dreams and think "if I build it they will come" and then lament the current generations and how they don't care about history because we never made it relavant or interesting......I know a few places doing exactly that. Maybe a deserted museum is what they really want tho.....

Robert

"I suggest that steam, to a degree, is timeless. You just don't see an average non-railfan at a musum running past a steam engine, shouting, "Oh my God, they have a GP-30 here, too!"--P-51

Ha! And how many railfans, even hard-core types, wouldn't do that either! And as a hard-core steam fan, I have to admit that would include me! Ho, ho, ho, ho!

(Actually, after I'd given the steamer a good look, I would stroll over to the diesel, just to let it and the people on it know it was still appreciated.)

"The Steampunk culture is HUGE, and lot of these folks are stating to hit middle age and have some disposable income. Steam rail preservationists should be working real hard on figuing out how to make them dispose of their income with us!"--Pegasuspinto

Absolutely!! Interestingly, this strikes me as almost a variation of the early days of steam railroad preservation, when so much was attempting to recall the Old West with bright colors and fake stacks--i.e., a lot of theatrical hokum. Don't take that as a criticism, though; that hokey Old West stuff kept some of our steam engines alive, and in at least one case--Dollywood--the engines shed that Old West nonsense to become something that looks like classic steam railroading in the south.

It also helps that the Steampunk crowd also has a taste for authenticity that seems to have been lacking in the fake Old West days.

I would also nominate that we take a look at the Dieselpunk culture, too. That bunch has at least one person of some prominence who also appreciates late steam power. That makes sense, really; the late steam engines were contemporary with the early internal combustion age, and would have been a part of it. That whole era was quite future-looking--think of the New York World's Fair of 1939-1940--and streamlined steam, like the Hiawathas, the Pennsy's S-1 6-4-4-6, and the New York Central's streamlined Hudsons were, at the time, viewed as much as a glimpse at the future as those E-3 and E-6 diesels from a new EMD.

I'll have more to say on this, but I'm a bit short on time at the moment. For now, though, it might be worthwhile to review some earlier threads that touched on some of these elements:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29906

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32578

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31288

This is a very interesting thread. Being on the younger end of the preservation spectrum, I certainly find that the 40 year rule applies to me. For my generation, I didn't have the pleasure of witnessing steam's last glory on the high iron, seeing GG1s on the Northeast Corridor doing 110mph, or live through the dark ages of Penn Central and other consolidations. This all happened 15-30 years before my time. I find myself being most interested in the late 50's, 60s and 70s railroading more than anything because it is recent enough that I can relate to it. To me this was a pivotal point in American railroading and worth remembering. I realize "dieselization" can sometimes be a dirty word around these parts, but for my generation seeing an old ALCO or EMD pulling a string of loaded hoppers in notch 8 is just as exciting as seeing K4s struggle around the Horseshoe Curve. These first generation diesel examples are OUR steam. Who knows, maybe my children will be working to preserve GEVOs and SD70MACs?

From my experiences at trolley museums, this problem applies more to the professional railfans and insiders. The general public pays a bit more attention to what is cute and unusual, instead of what they can really remember. Of course, their attention span usually doesn't last long enough to actually own and restore those antiques.

Being that I am only just over halfway to forty, I don't have much of that nostalgia factor yet. While I've been heavily interested in trains since I was two, I only got involved with preservation of any type about 4 or 5 years ago. Now I volunteer at 4 local museums. Two of them deal with local history, one of them is a children's museum, and one is a railway museum.

Personally, I've found that I have an affinity for the eras that came before me, and I love seeing those eras "come to life" through preservation. For example, I got interested in the history of steam logging when I was around 12 years old. I absolutely fell in love with the saga of the steam donkey engine and ended up building models of them, researching and studying them, visiting museums and displays that had them, and even saved up $60 to buy my own copy of Merv Johnson's book "In Search of Steam Donkeys".

Fast forward to August of 2011, when, finally, I got to see not one, but two steam donkeys in operation and under steam at a machinery and tractor show. For years, I had seen them in photos, I had seen them in operation on Youtube, I had seen real ones stuffed and mounted, but seeing, hearing, smelling one in real life was a whole new experience. I loved it. And yet, I'm a couple generations removed from the days that these machines were actively used. Nostalgia isn't the only thing that'll keep someone interested in a given topic.

I think that the role of any history museum should go beyond nostalgia. Otherwise, museums will end up just like car clubs and oldies stations. We'll throw out the oldest to make room for the not-as-old-but-really-nostalgic. Nostalgia is as temporary as the people who have it. We want "permanent collections", not "we'll hang on to it until the next generation doesn't want it anymore" collections.

On the other hand, I think that nostalgia can be a blessing. Nostalgia can help fuel the desire to preserve examples of the "disappearing last generation of equipment". The "Save an F40PH" movement comes to mind. Nostalgia can also help certain members of the public appreciate your museum and donate to your cause.

We want our artifacts to out-live the nostalgia that exists for them, but that nostalgia can help get those artifacts preserved in the first place.

Last year myself and a few other "L" car guys at IRM started tinkering with CTA 2153-2154, which are the newest electric cars at the museum (built in 1964 by Pullman-Standard). Since last August, we've gotten the cars' interiors cleaned up, replaced fuses/light bulbs, restored the heat in both cars (air conditioning in one), and run them up and down the track 10' or so with a stinger. Yesterday we changed out a bad traction motor on the 2154; trolley poles will be coming soon.

Reception to these "modern" cars has been pretty positive! After acquisition they mostly sat around the museum as display pieces, but lots of volunteers have stopped by to see what's up when they see the lights on. One actually screeched his car to a stop when he was driving by and saw the cars move under their own power. More than a few visitors have also told us they remember the "2000s" when they were running on the "L" (1964 - 1993).

I suppose the real test will be when these cars are ready to start hauling people, and seeing how many visitors gravitate toward them for a ride, but for the time being I'd say the 2000s' inverter whine will fit in right along with the air compressor "thumpthumpthump" of our CTA 4000s. The 4000s have "air conditioning" in the form of opening windows, but the 2000s' air conditioning works when you're standing still!

If you're in your 20s, what you mentioned is normal. I said exactly the same thing at that age. At 42, I'm just now starting to seriously reflect on the things that were around when I was a kid and wondering what will be preserved from that timeframe. I think of the stuff I saw running when I was a kid and a young man that isn't anymore, I feel the sense of loss that those older than me probably feel for the loss of steam on the mainlines.
That said, there will always be an interest in some eras, I'm convinced of that. There will always be people into the American Civil War, WW2, the 1920s, and other specific eras because they are so ingranied into the American culutre, I don't see them ever losing interest in general. The steam era is also a time that people generally will find interesting. Think of each time that 844 goes on a long trip, how many non-railfans stop when they see a steam engine coming by when they didn't plan on it, and the amazed looks they get? If it was just something unusual, you wouldn't see that expression from members of the public like you do. Steam holds a sense of amazement to people in general. Heck, I saw a bunch of 'urban thug' types walking down a street near the main when 4449 came by at speed. They stopped dead in their tracks and I clearly heard one say, "Man, that was #@&$ing awesome!" to the other. Now when you see that, you'll never be convinced that people will totally lose any interesting in running steam someday.

"That said, there will always be an interest in some eras, I'm convinced of that. There will always be people into the American Civil War, WW2, the 1920s, and other specific eras because they are so ingranied into the American culutre, I don't see them ever losing interest in general. The steam era is also a time that people generally will find interesting. Think of each time that 844 goes on a long trip, how many non-railfans stop when they see a steam engine coming by when they didn't plan on it, and the amazed looks they get? If it was just something unusual, you wouldn't see that expression from members of the public like you do. Steam holds a sense of amazement to people in general. Heck, I saw a bunch of 'urban thug' types walking down a street near the main when 4449 came by at speed. They stopped dead in their tracks and I clearly heard one say, "Man, that was #@&$ing awesome!" to the other. Now when you see that, you'll never be convinced that people will totally lose any interesting in running steam someday."--P51

And that, for me at least, puts the lie to the idea that a steam program is something for a railroad to avoid like the plague.

I'm not going to say every railroad should have one, or that they will always fit, but no railroad management should poo-poo such a thing.

In fact, I think if the management thought it out properly, maybe every road would have one!

Something else to consider... Aside from railfans, most people have very little concept of what age and era trains are.

Hillcrest Climax #10 ran on the MRSR for years with a "Diamond Stack" style spark arrestor. Despite the fact she was built in 1928, many folks saw the stack and asked "Is this engine from the 1800's?"

On the other hand, our Alco Switcher, built in the 1940's, was percieved as "Modern", even though it was actually older than the F9.

The F9 is the one locomotive a lot of folks do have a feel for the era of, since it resembles a 1950 automobile. Other than that, folks generally don't have any idea of the locomotive's vintage, and generally speaking they think of them in two flavors Steam (OLD!) and Diesel (Modern).