Greetings Railfans,

First of all let me introduce myself. I am the Secretary of the Board of Directors of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. I have been very active in the K4 project over the past 2 years. I have been working very closely with Barry Claar our K4 Project Manager and with Bill Fredrickson our new Steam Mechanic (since around Feb 2002). I am also an admitted SPF.

I have been reading recent postings about the K4#1361. I know everyone has an opinion about the project. Some good and alot bad. I can certainly understand the frustrations of not knowing what is going on with this project .

I want everyone who reads my post to stop now and scroll back on the list to the Posting on how Steamtown works. Read that first post entirely and then come back to my post and continue.

Ok I am assuming you read the initial posting about Steamtowns inner workings. So think real hard about what I am about to say.

We contracted with Steamtown in the Mid 1990s to do the 2nd Restoration of the K4 (BTW the first restoration was not bad, not as complete as this one but not bad) The NPS personel helped us pick a steam mechanic and we paid the NPS to Supervise the project and administrate the project. That included ordering parts and materials. Coordinating volunteers and making sure the work that was being done was of the highest quality so that the job would be done right. Thats right WE PAID THE NPS to do this!!
Noone at the museum had the expertise to run the project so we hired "experts" to do the job for us. Sounds like the smart thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

Now think back to the Steamtown posting. I think you can imagine what happened to this project. I don't want to get into alot of details at this time. It serves no purpose to point fingers and blame individuals.

I can tell you all that we now have top notch management of this project in Barry Claar. The museum hired Barry over a year and a half ago, when we realized that the project was in trouble. He has a good working knowledge of steam and has worked as a machinist and supervisor for Conrail and its predecessors for 30 years. His knowledge of AAR standards and his mechanical know how boggle my mind.

Bill Fredrickson is now our steam mechanic. He has been a godsend. Bill is a great fellow a dedicated worker and His knowledge of Steam locomotives rivals anyone alive today.

The problems have been identified, the right people are in place to make it happen. The restoration will be completed and it will be First Class. Funding is always an issue. As is the case in most endeavors of this type.

There is a business plan to use the K4 to run excursions. We want to run her in Blair county but we will almost certainly run her in other places . If the people in New Jersey have the money to rent her from us to run on their tracks. I can assure you #1361 will be there for some excursions. We have to make money with her. To maintain her and the museum that houses her. She will not run in places that are not profitable. That would be foolish and irresponsible.

Love her or hate her, thats up to you. I won't argue the merits of restoring a K4 vs a Reading T1. I don't have the time or energy. I am pouring all my energy into finishing what we started here and to get this Jewel of the Pennsy, and of Railroading in general, back on the rails, to thrill all those who come to see her.

Thats all I have to say about that.
Respectfully,
Dr Andy J. Mulhollen
Secretary
Board of Directors
Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum



prrdoc1@aol.com

> Greetings Railfans,

Well, hopefully we're not all Foamers here. :-)

Thanks for the update on 1361 from Altoona's point of view, Andy. Many of us are also interested in how the financial recovery plan for RRM is unfolding. Any update you can give us on how the restructuring of the Altoona operation is going?

eledbetter@rypn.org

Wonderful update! Wouldn't the SEDA-COG owned lines be a great and local (to Altoona) venue for the 1361? The Tyrone/Lock Haven 'Bald Eagle' offers a right of way that looks like the ole PRR in a mostly agricultutral (un'developed') landscape. Fast track without NS difficulties on what one would think would be a tourism appreciative host. A nice rail park/terminal already in Tyrone. And it seems the Northern Central will soon be available. Trackage rights to Williamsprt and CPR. The possibilities are interesting.

http://www.seda-cog.org
pvanmeter@msn.com

Dr. Mulhollen,

Thank you for the update.

> Thats
> right WE PAID THE NPS to do this!!

I don't think anyone here thinks otherwise.

> Noone at the museum had the expertise to run
> the project so we hired "experts"
> to do the job for us. Sounds like the smart
> thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

Yes and no.

It sounds smart, but the National Park Service had (and still has) no proven track record of doing the kind of restoration #1361 requires.

This is not 20/20 hindsight. These were questions raised when the project began.

>It serves no purpose to point fingers and blame individuals.

With all due respect, I think you pretty much did just blame people in the NPS for the failures.

I find it hard to place all the fault on Steamtown. Given the public news about Altoona's problems, it seems there was a bad combination of management issues.

> Love her or hate her, thats up to you. I
> won't argue the merits of restoring a K4 vs
> a Reading T1. I don't have the time or
> energy.

I think you misread my question as foamer fodder. That's generally not the nature of my posts or this board.

There's really not a "love or hate" issue in the question I asked initially, but rather one of economics and purpose.

I wish the best for all the efforts in Altoona. I come from a log line of Pennsy blood that includes a President, engineers and trainmen. Thank you again for contributing some inside persepective to the conversation.

All the best,

Rob Davis



Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

I'm wagering someone isn't old enough to remember that the Bald Eagle line is where 1361 did almost ALL her post-restoration operating, save for a stint out of York, Pa.

The NBER and SEDA-COG still qualify as "railfan-friendly" in my book (several officials are dues-paying NRHS members), but there is one major difference between now and 1987: The Bald Eagle was heavily rebuilt BY NORFOLK SOUTHERN as a cut-off between the Middle Division and the Buffalo Line, specifically to serve one power plant near Watsontown. Although the track is in better condition, any 1361 trips on the Bald Eagle will be competing--albeit with only modest difficulty at worst--with NS unit coal trains for track space and time.

Besides which, do we think the Bellefonte Historical RR's RDCs need the competition?

lner4472@bcpl.net

> First of all let me introduce myself. I am
> the Secretary of the Board of Directors of
> the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum.

As for your declaration of bona fides-would this mean you were a part of the Board and an officer that allowed your organization to careen toward bankruptcy and from what I hear, failed to remit payroll taxes to the IRS?

Before the complaining starts about flaming-I think when somebody writes a post that whacks a partner publicly (IMHO not professional)Such a question examines credibility. If I'm wrong, the good doctor can defend himself.

> I have been very active in the K4 project over
> the past 2 years.

I've visited this project fairly frequently since they started. I remember meeting the current and previous contractor, a guy named Joe and a guy named Dave- no doctor andy's in the house.

> I have been reading recent postings about
> the K4#1361. I know everyone has an opinion
> about the project. Some good and alot bad. I
> can certainly understand the frustrations of
> not knowing what is going on with this
> project .

Are you projecting?

> I want everyone who reads my post to stop
> now and scroll back on the list to the
> Posting on how Steamtown works. Read that
> first post entirely and then come back to my
> post and continue.

I believe that to assert opinions on a chatboard have probitive value is way beyond ridiculous-unless you want to form preconceived notions.

> Ok I am assuming you read the initial
> posting about Steamtowns inner workings. So
> think real hard about what I am about to
> say.

Yes, think about a stalled project and the "blame game"

> We contracted with Steamtown in the Mid
> 1990s to do the 2nd Restoration of the K4

So why was it 98 before the engine arrived on site?

> (BTW the first restoration was not bad, not
> as complete as this one but not bad)

You have to be joking. The engine wasn't restored. It needed a new smoke box-I've seen the old one-its RUSTED THROUGH where it meets the cylinder saddle. A new backhead was fabricated. How this ran in 87 is one of the great mysteries of our time.

The NPS
> personel helped us pick a steam mechanic and
> we paid the NPS to Supervise the project

Helped. You are ultimately responsible for the selection of your personnel

> administrate the project.

The word is "administer".

>That included
> ordering parts and materials.

Now we know steamtown orders parts and materials all the time. I've seen crates from well-known suppliers in the shop all the time. I think the implicit thought here is they ordered Steamtown ordered bad stuff- but that doesn't explain how the 2317 and 3254 are kept running.

>Coordinating volunteers

What volunteers? As I understand it your organization promised that many volunteers would be coming up to assist. I've already detailed my observations about the number of volunteers over the past few years.

> Noone at the museum had the expertise to run
> the project so we hired "experts"
> to do the job for us.

So you can't balance the books and you take on projects which you have absolutely no idea how to do, manage or direct?

>Sounds like the smart thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

The engines been up there since 98 and you are just finding out about deficiencies. When I hire employees, I get progress reports and stay "in the loop" why didn't you?

> Now think back to the Steamtown posting.

Now that's the third reference to a bunch of derogatory opinions at least one of which was thoroughly discredited.

> think you can imagine what happened to this
> project.

No, I can't. All I gather is something is wrong and you guys screwed up, you didn't check anything FOR YEARS and now you blame somebody else. I think you should just fess up to Rep. Geist or his successor.

I don't want to get into alot of
> details at this time.

As the details might tend to shift the finger of blame at least a LITTLE in your direction- its understandable.

It serves no purpose
> to point fingers and blame individuals.

I agree with Rob Davis. You just did. Worse still you did so with hearsay and innuendo

> I can tell you all that we now have top
> notch management of this project in Barry
> Claar. The museum hired Barry over a year
> and a half ago, when we realized that the
> project was in trouble.

So why did it take another year to change contractors?

>He has a good working knowledge of steam and has >worked as a machinist and supervisor for Conrail >and its predecessors for 30 years. His knowledge
> of AAR standards and his mechanical know how
> boggle my mind.

I don't know Mr. Claar so I don't want to impune his skills, but since you've already admitted NOBODY at Alttona has in-depth mechanical knowledge-of course that kind of knowledge boggles your mind- but last I checked Conrail never ran steam. By the way, AAR standards won't help you with steam- better bone up on 49CFR part 230.

> Bill Fredrickson is now our steam mechanic.
> He has been a godsend. Bill is a great
> fellow a dedicated worker and His knowledge
> of Steam locomotives rivals anyone alive
> today.

Ok, we have a point of agreement.

> The problems have been identified, the right
> people are in place to make it happen.

As an editorial comment, that's such a canned phrase of corporate-speak.

> restoration will be completed and it will be
> First Class.

Hey you guys better do it right when you dig the taxpayers for a cool mil.

> There is a business plan to use the K4 to
> run excursions. We want to run her in Blair
> county

Whats so special about Blair County? As far as I heard the entire commonwealth of PA paid for this.

>If the people in New Jersey have the money to rent her from us to run on their tracks. I can assure you #1361 will be there for some excursions.

I guess you haven't been reading the other posts about money.

>We have to make money with her.

Once again, this is not a money making business.

> She will not run in places that are not >profitable. That would be foolish and >irresponsible.

So is hiring a bunch of people to lay them off.

> Love her or hate her, thats up to you.

Nobody hates an inanimate object.

Thats all I have to say about that.

No so Respectfully,

Superheater
Chairman,
Board of Directors

Committe to End Internecine and Unproductive Bashing on RYPN


superheater@beer.com

Wow.

This is getting ugly here. Its too bad things have to come to this. When you sit back and wonder how the snowmobile and ATV groups can accomplish so much at the expense of RR preservation and operation, take a look at this. Our movement has a long way to go.

I think both sides have cause to be upset here, neither are the devil, nor free of responsibility. I cannot say enough about the shop forces at Steamtown, yet something somewhere went wrong. The Altoona Museum (which I believe is one of the finest interpretive museums in the country) has issues of its own.

I for one agree with most of the Steamtown post below, even if the SVA section was overly simplified, the place has alot to answer for. I can personally vouch for most of what was said there.

This is surely not one of the shining moments in the history of our cause.

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

Note on this website (link below) mention of revival of the organization's Shamokin line, dormant since the 1970s.

> Wonderful update! Wouldn't the SEDA-COG
> owned lines be a great and local (to
> Altoona) venue for the 1361? The Tyrone/Lock
> Haven 'Bald Eagle' offers a right of way
> that looks like the ole PRR in a mostly
> agricultutral (un'developed') landscape.
> Fast track without NS difficulties on what
> one would think would be a tourism
> appreciative host. A nice rail park/terminal
> already in Tyrone. And it seems the Northern
> Central will soon be available. Trackage
> rights to Williamsprt and CPR. The
> possibilities are interesting.


http://www.seda-cog.org/seda_cog/cwp/view.asp?Q=405191&A=600
ryarger@rypn.org

Ladies and Gentlemen, please control your tempers and leave the very heavy sarcasm at the door.

The "conversation" over 1361 is becoming the Internet equivalent of a toe to toe shouting match. While nothing said yet may violate the technical letter of the Interchange terms of service, we are running roughshod over the spirit of those terms.

I appeal to all readers to conduct themselves on this board in a generous and thoughtful rather than a disputations and "gotchya" spirit. Only by doing so will be able to maintain this board as a place of civil and productive discussion over the long haul of years.

Hume, Bob, and I intend to keep RyPN going for the long haul. We charge nothing for creating and maintaining this Internet magazine and the associated Interchange forum. However, we ask that you treat this forum as you would one of our living rooms-- a place for good coversation among friends with common interests, not a place for winner-take-all forensic pyrotechnics. That goes for 1361, Camelbacks, EBT, I-1sa decapods, or any of the handful of other issues which routinely seem to press our mutual civility to the limits.

We can do better, and I am asking everyone to do better. Please do it as a matter of coutesy to the expressed wishes of your hosts if not out of respect for your debating opponents on an issue. Please do not make this board so wearisome and dispiriting to read that your hosts lose interest in maintaining it for you.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Let's talk turkey about the K4s. Obviously a member of the BOD is going to hold to the company line and say everything is fine. But let's be honest with ourselves: everything is not alright! And I will say it because I've contributed my hard earned dollars to the restoration effort and expect to see some results.

I'm going to tell it like it is--this project has been doomed from the start.

The previous contractor (in the 80's) got a bad rap for the work he did simply because he was under pressure to "get it back together and running." See what happened? De ja vu all over again.

Now fast forward to the current project. You have a contractor who has a reputation in the steam industry for doing so-so work and he is the Savior of steam. You can't tell me that putting rivets into a set of sheets COLD is a sign of experience that is ego-based decision making that is a sign of inexperience. This is the same guy who told his father, a former Reading Shops steam mechanic of over 50 years experience, that he didn't know what he was doing when offered advice on another steam restoration project. Frankly, the Steamtown Shop no longer has the years of experience that Chris Ahrens had and in his absence mistakes are starting to show up thanks to a political decision from a higher up.

According to recent press reports, the Altoona museum is in financial trouble. How can they afford to get this engine back together and run it when 1) they have no place to run it back home and 2) barely keep the lights on at their home facility let along worry about having to run a steam loco? Where are the priorities right now?

I will say what many don't like to hear. The K4s should have been sent to Strasburg where it would have been done right and on schedule.

There, I've now said it.

> Greetings Railfans,

> First of all let me introduce myself. I am
> the Secretary of the Board of Directors of
> the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. I
> have been very active in the K4 project over
> the past 2 years. I have been working very
> closely with Barry Claar our K4 Project
> Manager and with Bill Fredrickson our new
> Steam Mechanic (since around Feb 2002). I am
> also an admitted SPF.

> I have been reading recent postings about
> the K4#1361. I know everyone has an opinion
> about the project. Some good and alot bad. I
> can certainly understand the frustrations of
> not knowing what is going on with this
> project .

> I want everyone who reads my post to stop
> now and scroll back on the list to the
> Posting on how Steamtown works. Read that
> first post entirely and then come back to my
> post and continue.

> Ok I am assuming you read the initial
> posting about Steamtowns inner workings. So
> think real hard about what I am about to
> say.

> We contracted with Steamtown in the Mid
> 1990s to do the 2nd Restoration of the K4
> (BTW the first restoration was not bad, not
> as complete as this one but not bad) The NPS
> personel helped us pick a steam mechanic and
> we paid the NPS to Supervise the project and
> administrate the project. That included
> ordering parts and materials. Coordinating
> volunteers and making sure the work that was
> being done was of the highest quality so
> that the job would be done right. Thats
> right WE PAID THE NPS to do this!!
> Noone at the museum had the expertise to run
> the project so we hired "experts"
> to do the job for us. Sounds like the smart
> thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

> Now think back to the Steamtown posting. I
> think you can imagine what happened to this
> project. I don't want to get into alot of
> details at this time. It serves no purpose
> to point fingers and blame individuals.

> I can tell you all that we now have top
> notch management of this project in Barry
> Claar. The museum hired Barry over a year
> and a half ago, when we realized that the
> project was in trouble. He has a good
> working knowledge of steam and has worked as
> a machinist and supervisor for Conrail and
> its predecessors for 30 years. His knowledge
> of AAR standards and his mechanical know how
> boggle my mind.

> Bill Fredrickson is now our steam mechanic.
> He has been a godsend. Bill is a great
> fellow a dedicated worker and His knowledge
> of Steam locomotives rivals anyone alive
> today.

> The problems have been identified, the right
> people are in place to make it happen. The
> restoration will be completed and it will be
> First Class. Funding is always an issue. As
> is the case in most endeavors of this type.

> There is a business plan to use the K4 to
> run excursions. We want to run her in Blair
> county but we will almost certainly run her
> in other places . If the people in New
> Jersey have the money to rent her from us to
> run on their tracks. I can assure you #1361
> will be there for some excursions. We have
> to make money with her. To maintain her and
> the museum that houses her. She will not run
> in places that are not profitable. That
> would be foolish and irresponsible.

> Love her or hate her, thats up to you. I
> won't argue the merits of restoring a K4 vs
> a Reading T1. I don't have the time or
> energy. I am pouring all my energy into
> finishing what we started here and to get
> this Jewel of the Pennsy, and of Railroading
> in general, back on the rails, to thrill all
> those who come to see her.

> Thats all I have to say about that.
> Respectfully,
> Dr Andy J. Mulhollen
> Secretary
> Board of Directors
> Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum

In addition to the tax dollars your organization has thrown down the toilet on the K4 you have mismanaged the Park at Horseshoe Curve to the point it is open less than ever and costs more than ever.

An effort to fix this situation, which you people have caused, would make people like me who pay taxes, feel better about your organization being able to manage something like steam excursions.

Right now I feel like it is just a matter of time before you guys go under and the K-4 is on the cover of the D. F. Barnhardt catalog.

Tom Gears

Regarding the ownership, is it correct that:

PRR gave it to Altoona when put on display at Horeshooe Curve and Altoona gave it (for a dollar was it?) to the museum after it was removed from the Curve.

Just curious.

Joshua

joshuakblay@hotmail.com

As the Interim Director and Treasurer of the Board of the Railroaders Memorial Museum since the resignation of the previous Board, I can assure you that I would be happy to respond in as much detail as possible to you or anyone else on this subject. I only have one request. Own up to your opinion as Andy did and sign your name to your remarks. I cannot and will not EVER respond to someone hiding behind a screen name. Thank you.

Scott Cessna
Railroaders Memorial Museum
Altoona, PA

> As for your declaration of bona fides-would
> this mean you were a part of the Board and
> an officer that allowed your organization to
> careen toward bankruptcy and from what I
> hear, failed to remit payroll taxes to the
> IRS?

> Before the complaining starts about
> flaming-I think when somebody writes a post
> that whacks a partner publicly (IMHO not
> professional)Such a question examines
> credibility. If I'm wrong, the good doctor
> can defend himself.

> I've visited this project fairly frequently
> since they started. I remember meeting the
> current and previous contractor, a guy named
> Joe and a guy named Dave- no doctor andy's
> in the house.

> Are you projecting?

> I believe that to assert opinions on a
> chatboard have probitive value is way beyond
> ridiculous-unless you want to form
> preconceived notions.

> Yes, think about a stalled project and the
> "blame game"

> So why was it 98 before the engine arrived
> on site?

> You have to be joking. The engine wasn't
> restored. It needed a new smoke box-I've
> seen the old one-its RUSTED THROUGH where it
> meets the cylinder saddle. A new backhead
> was fabricated. How this ran in 87 is one of
> the great mysteries of our time.

> The NPS

> Helped. You are ultimately responsible for
> the selection of your personnel

> The word is "administer".

> Now we know steamtown orders parts and
> materials all the time. I've seen crates
> from well-known suppliers in the shop all
> the time. I think the implicit thought here
> is they ordered Steamtown ordered bad stuff-
> but that doesn't explain how the 2317 and
> 3254 are kept running.

> What volunteers? As I understand it your
> organization promised that many volunteers
> would be coming up to assist. I've already
> detailed my observations about the number of
> volunteers over the past few years.

> So you can't balance the books and you take
> on projects which you have absolutely no
> idea how to do, manage or direct?

> The engines been up there since 98 and you
> are just finding out about deficiencies.
> When I hire employees, I get progress
> reports and stay "in the loop" why
> didn't you?

> Now that's the third reference to a bunch of
> derogatory opinions at least one of which
> was thoroughly discredited.

> No, I can't. All I gather is something is
> wrong and you guys screwed up, you didn't
> check anything FOR YEARS and now you blame
> somebody else. I think you should just fess
> up to Rep. Geist or his successor.

> I don't want to get into alot of

> As the details might tend to shift the
> finger of blame at least a LITTLE in your
> direction- its understandable.

> It serves no purpose

> I agree with Rob Davis. You just did. Worse
> still you did so with hearsay and innuendo

> So why did it take another year to change
> contractors?

> I don't know Mr. Claar so I don't want to
> impune his skills, but since you've already
> admitted NOBODY at Alttona has in-depth
> mechanical knowledge-of course that kind of
> knowledge boggles your mind- but last I
> checked Conrail never ran steam. By the way,
> AAR standards won't help you with steam-
> better bone up on 49CFR part 230.

> Ok, we have a point of agreement.

> As an editorial comment, that's such a
> canned phrase of corporate-speak.

> Hey you guys better do it right when you dig
> the taxpayers for a cool mil.

> Whats so special about Blair County? As far
> as I heard the entire commonwealth of PA
> paid for this.

> I guess you haven't been reading the other
> posts about money.

> Once again, this is not a money making
> business.

> So is hiring a bunch of people to lay them
> off.

> Nobody hates an inanimate object.

> Thats all I have to say about that.

> No so Respectfully,

> Superheater
> Chairman,
> Board of Directors

> Committe to End Internecine and Unproductive
> Bashing on RYPN


cessvw@cs.com

Mr. Gears,

The new Board at the Museum is rexamining the operating hours of both facilities including the Curve. As for cost, an annual grounds pass allowing you to visit the Curve as often as you like can be purchased for a mere $5.

You can hold whatever opinion you would like of the future of the Museum, but it might be nice for you to first investigate the team that is being assembled to keep the facility open. Under new direction and focus, the Museum has shown a profit for 3 months running since the reorganization. It will be here for a long time to come.

> In addition to the tax dollars your
> organization has thrown down the toilet on
> the K4 you have mismanaged the Park at
> Horseshoe Curve to the point it is open less
> than ever and costs more than ever.

> An effort to fix this situation, which you
> people have caused, would make people like
> me who pay taxes, feel better about your
> organization being able to manage something
> like steam excursions.

> Right now I feel like it is just a matter of
> time before you guys go under and the K-4 is
> on the cover of the D. F. Barnhardt catalog.

> Tom Gears


cessvw@cs.com

Good Morning,

I'm glad you said this. There have been some unsettling comments made in our circles about contractors and individuals. Most were not by name, but many of us know who they are. These are people for whom I have a great deal of respect.

Since I know some of these folks, mostly casually, I will add this: the quality of work does not always reflect the man with the tool in his hand.

Often, management decisions on material, time and financial resources greatly hinder the goals of the mechanic and P.E. I know of specific examples relating to some of these folks where this has been case.

When it gets bad, some mechanics walk; either out of frustration or pride if they are not being allowed to do the quality work their gifted skills allow.

Rob

> The previous contractor (in the 80's) got a
> bad rap for the work he did simply because
> he was under pressure to "get it back
> together and running." See what
> happened? De ja vu all over again.



Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com