So, and this is semi-on topic, but they do have a website and it's updated regularly. However, it was probably designed back in the 1990s. Not the best way to grab our interest and entice us into joining. Perhaps the entire club is due for a refreshing?

Perhaps the entire industry?

http://www.railcc.org/

OK, so my first reaction was "So what? If the site still presents the info they need, what does it matter when it was created?"

Uh, yeah, well then I clicked on the link, looked at the site and realized "Wow, I guess it does matter after all." Did you miss Geocities? Wonder what things looked like with Netscape Navigator version 2? This page will give a good idea how things looked back then, complete with uber-cool gif anims.

OK, so the website could use an update. That's true of a lot of organizations... I don't think it's the root of the problem. I think the problem lies in what you see when you read the website. It says "Featuring Slideshows of Trains from Around the World." As they say on Mythbusters "There's your problem!"

That's what I get if I pay to become a member and make my way downtown? (let's pretend I live in the Chicago area for this discussion) I get to see train photos?

How is that any better than what I can do right here, right now, with a few clicks of the mouse?

Guys, you've got a sales problem, and the problem is that folks are getting for free, in an easier manner, what you're selling. (Yes, selling, since it costs money to join...) You want somebody to show up and participate? You need to convince them that they'll get something they won't get setting on their duff in front of a computer!

Why should anyone attend the meetings? Are the slideshows by well known photographers? Somebody with knowledge of the line or a large collection of slides? What's special about the slideshows and why aren't you telling folks about it?

Is there a bull session before or after? Do you go out for a bite to eat after the show? What reason would a typical railfan have for wanting to attend?

If you want people to buy your product/service, you've got to sell it to them!

Bobharbison, that's exactly my point, but you said it much better. I wasn't trying to nitpick them about their website. It's more about the presentation of the group. It's hard to have this conversation without it turning into a young-vs-old argument, but if groups want young people involved they have to keep young people in mind. A strong web presence can go a long way to help. Conversely, a poor web presence can hurt much more than no web presence.

You'll always pick up a few people just because of their interest but you're right, many groups are bad at "selling" themselves. Going back to mine (which is not rail related, for the record) I was talking with a member who had left a few years ago and I said "hey, you should come back" and he flat out said "Why? With what the group has to offer, what does it benefit me to come back?". Now while I was able to convince him he was wrong it still illustrated a good point: people are not going to join your group simply to save your group.

I don't want to drag "politics' or sociological debate into this, but one thing I have seen/heard pop up in the overall discussions of "why don't the young get involved in XXX?"

Often, they can't.

The generation gap is expanding, possibly faster than the gap between "left" and "right" in politics. This is an intergenerational feud heating up, and some of its participants seem unaware of it.

Rattle off the same old "do you know how hard it is to raise kids?" mantra and repeat. Add in, of course, how you can't run mainline excursions anymore, and how "impersonal" the major railroads have become (the recents efforts of NS notwithstanding).

More importantly, add to that a growing disparity between the older and younger generations. The so-called "Greatest Generation" is basically enjoying retirement, and lamenting (well, some of them) that they're busier in retirement than they were when they were working, doing volunteer work, taking vacations, and collecting pensions and Social Security. The first of the baby-boomers are hitting retirement age, and some of them are deferring retirement--some by choice, others by necessity because not enough money is there.

I don't think I've talked to one "younger" person, say under 35, that has a realistic grip of the current American, Canadian, and global fiscal, demographic, and political picture that has ANY realistic expectation of a leisurely retirement. I know people who have literally said "Can't afford to have children...." They're convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they're going to die working, or that the same Social Security system they're forced to pay into now will not exist or be a puny remnant of the system that sustains so many of the retirees today. I once watched one young guy leave a lunch table and restaurant as the other members of the party, all government retirees, whined about how their (relatively generous) pensions were being adjusted a little, and how that wasn't right, but they'll be OK because their investments are still hangin' in there, and maybe the one guy would have to settle for a domestic vacation instead of an overseas one this year, or wait until next year to trade in the wife's car, and....... When I caught up with the younger guy, he let loose with profanities aimed at the old guard, and I'm not sure I blame him. People like him, the peeved-off folks, are the ones joining the Tea Party or Occupy Whatever. The others are just as peeved off but don't have time....

I personally know not-so-young people who were in what should have been considered lucrative fields--engineering, financial planning, military contracting, aerospace--who have been downsized and are trying, some successfully and some not, to eke out a living, never mind hold on to the same standard of living they had. I personally know four foreclosure victims that I know of, and my own landlord even sank in foreclosure.

You can call it a "Me Generation;" you'll hardly be the first. But in an environment where it looks likely the future generation may be worse off than the one preceding it, reprioritization may be in order. We've beaten around variations of this topic before--Cars, boats, and planes beat out trains because you can take the car/boat/plane home and own it yourself; "what are we getting for our NRHS/Museum membership anyway?" Why are we discussing credit card technology when we need to be discussing "smart phone" technology?

And we're not alone in this, so it's not just old trains. Churches, ethnic clubs, museums of all stripes, fraternal organizations, animal shelters, you name it--all have had problems attracting the young. I would argue that it's become a systemic, and largely societal, failure to make the younger folks even CARE about the future, let alone strive to save something about the past for the future.

And I don't have answers.

The moment officers and Trustees are elected to a group, they need to canvass the membership and beyond to see who will replace them in the coming years. That is part of good stewardship at any non-profit or museum. There is something wrong with one individual being at the helm of an organization for nearly three decades: either megalomania takes hold with " I know better than anyone else",bylaws that permitted this behavior, or they were in the comfort zone convincing themselves there was no need for membership outreach.

A few years ago, Trains Magazine published an article on how to get the younger generations involved. One of the taboos was not to treat them like an outcast or a pledge in a fraternal organization, but to get them involved and accommodate them (within reason) on what they want to accomplish.

An issue with many organizations is there is no outreach or publicity outside of the tightly knit social circles to recruit new people. I suspect that is what happened to the Chicago Club. And recruitment doesn't need to cost money. Human interest stories at many large newspapers usually get stellar treatment. Too many times, I used to hear,"Wow, there is a rail museum in my community! Now I don't have to drive five hours to (name your state and operating museum) to see this stuff! Maybe I can help". And many new members came to us in this way.


There are lots of people who enjoy trains out there. The question is, how can you get them involved with your group and make it an enjoyable experience for all.

Does anyone here know of someone who's big into lodges, fraternal groups such as the Elks, Grange and groups like that? I read a newspaper article about them the other day that predicted they'd all cease to exist in the next 20 years or so because nobody new is joining. Time was, the article said, that sons joined because their fathers and grandfathers had. That's not happening anymore and these groups have no idea how to reverse that trend.
I can't help but see a parallel here somehow.
The times, they are a'changing...

Funny you should mention that. I was a Mason for many years (joined at age 21) until the dues got too high for the perceived value. And yes, the lodge was having membership issues in the late 1980s. The one I belonged to was merged into another lodge in the 1990s.

Our local churches are in the same situation. One local church has merged so many times it has a name like McKendree-Simms-Brookland.

Not sure I have an answer. But the symptoms are everywhere.

Wesley

A lot of it is the population. When my Mom passed away a few years ago, I spent some time with the pastor of our church. He mentioned that the church was facing a real problem in the next 10 to 15 years. He said it felt like a lot of one generation didn't attend church. He explained he had lots of seniors, and young families were quite active. What was missing was the middle age generation.

Usually those folks are the biggest donors and participants, having enough money and time to be active in the church and help support it. The old folks are dying off of course, and the Pastor wasn't sure how he was going to get through the next few years. He felt that if he could manage to hold on, things would improve as the younger generation filled in the gaps.

Another organization that was having problems was the VFW. While they welcome all veterans, the majority of members were from Wold War II in the heyday. Recently they've had some younger members from Viet Nam and Korea, but not nearly as many.

My son served in Iraq, but I get the impression that he's about as likely to join the VFW as he is to join the Lady's Auxiliary Knitting and Sewing Circle. Why is that? Not due to lack of respect for the Veterans, but rather a lack of interest in what the VFW provides. Based on what little we've seen of the organization during a few visits with my family, membership gets you admission to a bar and social club where you can sit around with your buddies and talk about your time in the service.

That was far more relevant just after World War II. A massive amount of men fought in World War II. So there were a lot of them in town, and they could get together and share the fellowship of being part of the same team. These days, there aren't nearly as many people who are in the service. So my son wouldn't find nearly as many people his own age to get together with and socialize. There's just not a big enough critical mass to have a good group of folks.

The same thing may be true of these railroad clubs. There aren't enough people who recall the old days and think it's fun to sit around and watch slideshows. Today they have to be multimedia productions in Pro-Show and have a slick look before anyone is really interested.

Mr. Mitchell has my kudos for his post above. If you could only know just how true the statements you made actually are in the current world. As a 27 year old my retirement plan at this point is literally to work until I'm physically unable and then commit an UNarmed robbery on a bank and get thrown into minimum security so I don't starve to death on the street. Thats basically the option that looks available right now.

Meanwhile back at the here and now I present a primo example of a couple of the points I made earlier:

Just this last Saturday the city I live in held its annual railroad festival in the newly renovated County Tourism Center built inside the towns old L&N station. I myself displayed a 4X8 O-27 layout I just recently completed at said event. The thing being I had built my layout to be completely interactive with the public that would be coming through. Doing so by placing a string of 20 push buttons along the public facing of the layout so that they could push them to make various accessories do things.

The local "big city" model railroad club also came down to display. Their display was one train going around in circle on a bare table next to a "wall of text" they'd brought along with them to show the stuff their club USED to do but don't anymore. This being manned by a couple of older fellows that obliviously had no intention of openly talking to the public instead opting to let the "wall of text" do it for them.

Needless to say the public quickly bypassed them (without reading the wall of text) and made their way to the backroom where I was to interact with something they could actually play with. There were a couple of points I actually had to start moving kids (and their parents who liked buttons too) along because the room was starting to fill. The event coordinator noticed this and I imagine I'll have no problem requesting to be put in the stations main room next year while "big city" railroad club can sit in the back room.

I was asked a ton of questions by people about where you could get stuff like I had and was even asked for my card by a gentleman who wanted to call me later on for help and advice on building a layout of his own. Point being THIS is the kind of stuff the model railroad club should have been doing instead of the random guy in the back. I even had a couple of mothers and grandmothers compliment my layout and make the point to tell me that this is the kind of the thing "that club" upfront should have had instead of just a train going in a circle because they're kids shot right past them.

Another thing being that you would think "big city" would be interested in talking to a local railroad fan who obviously had made something that got the public holding still for a moment so you could talk to them. Or at the very least see if the guy who had gone to the trouble to build an interactive train layout would be interested in being in...you know...a model railroad club. Instead they walked back during one of the brief slow periods I had that day and took one look at the table of old marx signals and lights I had wired up with this look I could only discribe as "digust" and proceeded back to their train running around in a circle. No attempt was made to talk to me, get me interested in the club, learn anything about what I did to gain peoples interest, etc.

This is fairly normal behavior for the groups in the area I live in. There are two railroad museums and no less than 3 model railroad clubs within 90 minutes of the town I live in. However THEY ALL choose to act just like above whenever an event happens. Therefore the two groups I do work with are outside of state while the local outfits are losing membership literally as fast as they can die.

I've noticed "the youth" has been talked about in the 3rd person a lot so far in this and other threads here on rypn. Maybe a little 1st person is in order. ;) So if you'll bear with me...

I just turned 21 years old. I volunteer at four museums: Two local history museums, one children's museum (where I take care of the HO train layout), and one operating rail museum. As a young guy, I've recognized that one day, I will be responsible for preserving the history of my culture, and that eventually I will have to pass that responsibility on to the generations that follow mine. Complicating the matter is the fact that many members of my generation don't really care about preserving our history. Instead of just "going along with the crowd", I have decided to become a student of those more experienced than myself, not only in school, but in the museum field. That's one of the reasons I read rypn nearly every day, so I can learn from others' experience on how to properly preserve and interpret my culture.

The way I learn best is through experience. Getting good museum experience = getting good museum education. I learn how to be gracious with the public as a Car Attendant. I learn not to use plastic hangers on vintage clothing due to off-gassing of the plastic. I learn how to operate historic farm machinery safely in a living history museum. I want to learn, but I need to be taught.

While I may not have a wonderful retirement with lots of time and money to spare in my future, that makes me want to spend what extra time I do have on something worthwhile, something greater than myself, something like preserving my culture.

My museum experiences have been very good, thanks to the gracious teachers I've had who not only tell me how to do something, but show me, and eventually let me do it myself. If you want to infuse the youth with a life-long passion, take that spark of interest and fan it into a roaring flame. Show me that I belong, that I'm needed, and that the work I do is appreciated, and I'll be glad to do even the unwanted jobs.


Find members who are willing to teach and have them mentor those who are willing to learn. They're out there. :)

Boilerwash, your retirement plan sounds like my son's (he's 22.) The first problem anyone that age has is finding any job more lucrative than four or five hours a week at McD's.

Also...I've seen the exact attitude you describe far too many times. When the kid was smaller and we went to a club where no one knew us, far too often we were met with glares, suspicion and selective deafness to our questions. (If my husband asked a question, they'd answer.)

In the spirit of what would be right, rather than what is wrong, attracting families and young people means not charging a fortune for events. If this means booking meeting time at a community center in a relatively safe suburb instead of the ballroom of the Daddy Warbucks Inn downtown, so be it. As you found out, things that move and interact are much more interesting than things that sit. People who move and interact are also more interesting than people who sit, especially if they're glaring and muttering.

One of the coolest programs I ever saw was a simulated evening at the B&O station in Barnesville, Ohio, where the tracks are long gone. A local historian enlisted the drama departments of two high schools to help, along with a lot of the people who had been responsible for cleaning up the depot. The program went on with appropriate train rumbling outside, headlights flickering off the curtains, prospective passengers coming in, an agent writing tickets and checking luggage, the Western Union messenger taking off with a telegram, and passenger conductors sticking their heads in to ask whether there were any passengers for this or that train. The MC went on with his slideshow amid the activity as if it were perfectly natural to be in the middle of a working waiting room in the 1930s. Kid was little at the time--maybe five--and he LOVED it. Nobody charged an arm and a leg for the tickets, either.

You're not kidding. I'm a fully trained and licensed electrician and I haven't had a "normal" 5 day a week job for nearly 2 years because no one will even talk to me let alone offer an interview.

Right now I'm making a living doing condition inspections on foreclosed houses for several banking companies at $4 a house. It pays the bills and I've got so many houses foreclosed on my route now I've actually had to start turning down offers for more of them from my supervisors. If somebody tells you "things are getting better" ask them why my workload suddenly doubled this month.

The ironic thing is if the railroad museums in my area didn't act like such jackasses I have alot of free time to help them now but they're not worth fooling with. Oh well, back to watching cartoons.

[quote="boilerwash"]

1. The retired generation seems to fail to recognize that the younger generation has this thing called "work" that unfortunately we have to go to 5 (and alot of times 6 or 7) days a week. We're sorry that we can't come work on Ole' 99 everyday of the week but theres this stuff called "food" and "shelter" that humans need to survive and unfortunately that stuff costs money. We don't get retirement checks.
[quote]

Plus that is the reason why I have not yet vollentered at my Local RR Museum which is IRM. I would love to vollenter there but Its just that I cant find the right time to do it. Plus I have bills to pay and stuff. Now if my life was not so busy then yes I would be hanging out at Railroad museums more often but for now, I can only come when I am avaliable.

When IRM moved from North Chicago to Union in the early 60s, it was a massive effort entailing the help of a bunch of a bunch of then-young guys who were literally laying track as hospital trains were approaching on the C&NW. The other day I was out there pondering with a couple other volunteers of comparable age how such a move could be conducted in the present day.

We basically came to the conclusion that transporting the stuff wouldn't be too big of an issue (substitute low-boy trailers for the shuttle move on the C&NW), and that we'd be able to physically clear the museum site with no issues - but good luck getting the vacation days from work so you can actually be out there. Hats off to that group of guys out there who did all that work back then; I'm not sure such a feat could be repeated in 2012.

From this old goggers perspective I think there's two main factors at play here.


1. Those of us old enough to have had "real" steam in our lives are thinning out rapidly like the remaining WW11 vets and the younger generation railfans are understandably more interested in machines that were part of their early years.

2. There's no doubt that the www has had a profound impact on railfaning as it's now so easy to sit in front of the computer and roam the entire railfan scene without leaving the comfort of your home.

When we executed the 3 year excursion program on NJT using C&O 614 I am pleased to report that a majority of our volunteer corp. ( which numbered about 145 people) was comprised of folks in the late teens-early 30's age bracket so I believe if you present folks with a worthy activity you will attract many younger 'ins!

Obviously the days of the monthly let's look at old slides meetings are long gone!!

IMHO- Ross Rowland