Mr. Hudson,

The "cold riveting" was done under the supervision of the employees hired by the NPS and Mr Ahrens. The "mistakes that are starting to show up" are all mistakes that were the result of work prior to Mr. Frederickson's arrival.

As far as the financial condition of the Museum, I am now the Treasurer of the Board since the resignation of the previous directors. First, the money to restore the K4 is separate from any monies used to operate the Museum. They are independent of each other from a funding point of view. Refocused Museum operations have resulted in a profit for 3 months straight - June, July and August. Before you sound the death bell for the Museum, you might want to investigate the group being assembled to turn it around. I have complete confidence in myself as a finance professional and confidence in the others who are leading this effort. I am a little confused in your defense of Steamtown early in your post when you decided to end your response with the opinion that had it gone to Strasburg instead of Steamtown, it would have been done on time and on budget. I would remind you that the Museum, knowing it did not have the expertise, CONTRACTED with Steamtown to hire all the necessary people and purchase all the supplies and equipment to get the job done on time and on budget. To everyone's dismay, that did not happen.

runn> Let's talk turkey about the K4s. Obviously a
> member of the BOD is going to hold to the
> company line and say everything is fine. But
> let's be honest with ourselves: everything
> is not alright! And I will say it because
> I've contributed my hard earned dollars to
> the restoration effort and expect to see
> some results.

> I'm going to tell it like it is--this
> project has been doomed from the start.

> The previous contractor (in the 80's) got a
> bad rap for the work he did simply because
> he was under pressure to "get it back
> together and running." See what
> happened? De ja vu all over again.

> Now fast forward to the current project. You
> have a contractor who has a reputation in
> the steam industry for doing so-so work and
> he is the Savior of steam. You can't tell me
> that putting rivets into a set of sheets
> COLD is a sign of experience that is
> ego-based decision making that is a sign of
> inexperience. This is the same guy who told
> his father, a former Reading Shops steam
> mechanic of over 50 years experience, that
> he didn't know what he was doing when
> offered advice on another steam restoration
> project. Frankly, the Steamtown Shop no
> longer has the years of experience that
> Chris Ahrens had and in his absence mistakes
> are starting to show up thanks to a
> political decision from a higher up.

> According to recent press reports, the
> Altoona museum is in financial trouble. How
> can they afford to get this engine back
> together and run it when 1) they have no
> place to run it back home and 2) barely keep
> the lights on at their home facility let
> along worry about having to run a steam
> loco? Where are the priorities right now?

> I will say what many don't like to hear. The
> K4s should have been sent to Strasburg where
> it would have been done right and on
> schedule.

> There, I've now said it.


cessvw@cs.com

> I'm wagering someone isn't old enough to
> remember that the Bald Eagle line is where
> 1361 did almost ALL her post-restoration
> operating, save for a stint out of York, Pa.

> The NBER and SEDA-COG still qualify as
> "railfan-friendly" in my book
> (several officials are dues-paying NRHS
> members), but there is one major difference
> between now and 1987: The Bald Eagle was
> heavily rebuilt BY NORFOLK SOUTHERN as a
> cut-off between the Middle Division and the
> Buffalo Line, specifically to serve one
> power plant near Watsontown. Although the
> track is in better condition, any 1361 trips
> on the Bald Eagle will be competing--albeit
> with only modest difficulty at worst--with
> NS unit coal trains for track space and
> time.

> Besides which, do we think the Bellefonte
> Historical RR's RDCs need the competition?

Actually, I photographed the 1361 on the Bald Eagle on the break-in runs. It was well before the line was rebuilt. The speed was slow; in no way conducive to public excursions. I made the post because I havn't heard anyone ever discuss the possibilities re. SEDA-COG. AND- I hardly think a few seasonal excursions will put a damper on the Bellefont crowd. If anything, it should enhanse their operation. Maybe one day we'll see double-headed K-4's & tuscan E-8 powered excursions shuttling crowds toward Beaver Stadium for Penn State football. I bet they could even fit in a coal train or two.
The state of Pennsylvania offers extrodinary potential to use its rail history to maintain its mostly beautiful landscape & contain sprawl by creating heritage corridors and planning development. A regional government entity like SEDA-COG could be providing a model for such projects. These are the folks with the grant writing abilities and organizational skills to make these sorts of ideas viable. From the nature of many of the posts on this forum, it seems that not too much of rail preservation community has considered 'possibilities.' As Daniel Burnum said- 'make no small plans'

Mr. Cessna

I am glad to see you are upbeat about the situation. As an outsider I see the that the ball has been dropped on two of the three big items you folks do. Not only has it been dropped but lots of tax monies have been flushed right down the toilet.

The K-4 project seems to be a big ugly mess that is going to not look good until she is pounding the high iron. The park on the other hand, you folks can take care of right away. If you can't handle doing something about that, then give it up to someone who will. Remember this... it costs more than ever and is open less than ever. what you are doing is wrong, you need to change your plan or give it up to someone who will.

Tom Gears

I was the person who asked Andy to post something on this site to respond to the "rumors" and speculation concerning the status of the K4 project. Surely the intent was not to open Andy to the blowtorches.

I have always felt and publicly expressed to the Board at the ARRMM that there was a great distance between the "truth" and what was either being released to the public or plastered on billboards along the PA turnpike about the return of the 1361. Even last month there was a mailing to life members of the museum that referenced the return of the K4 that was not at all reflective of the saga going on behing the scenes.

I felt and still do feel that the preservation community should have the benefit of the story with all the warts, not just a rehashing of the puff pieces circulated by misguided do-gooders.

Now it appears as if my efforts to encourage a candid report of actually what is happening in ALtoona has brought "the rath of Kahn" upon ANDY.

There are just too many of us who would rather curse the darkness than light a candle. And the discussion in this thread is a perfect example.

Consider the following:

1. No government grant carries with it unrestricted control of the money. To get the funding for the K4 some people believe that Altoona sold its soul to the devil, because together with the money came the condition that the work be done in Scranton. It was the eternal political triangle used to broaden the funding base by expanding the constituancy. Would you trust a government entity to build your house?

2. The situation at the HSC and the fees and hours again is the result of political intusion whereby the ADA access to the curve saddled the museum with an ongoing expense that is only recoverable from the fare box. The funicular is expense to maintain and operate. It also requires "$taffing". So on one hand the "Lord" givith, and on the other the "Lord" taketh, and in this case IMHO we all suffered with a grand plan that would have better been left the way it was, because we also got the NPS involved in a local park and railfan mecca.

3. The staffing requirements set forth for professional recognition of the new museum were far beyond the capacity of the town and its limited visior base to fund the weekly payroll. champain tastes, but with a beer pocketbook. Somewhere along the line a lot of people were sold a lot of trombones. Howard Hill visted Altoona one time too many.

4. And yes there were management problems, and yes the Board of Directors who should have known better, were just not informed. I was on the Board for one year and drove 500 miles RT to attend board meetings and never once head about the witholding problem. It never showed on any of the financial statements given to the directos at any Board meeting I attended.

5. Unbriddled optimisim and some naivite were a common thread in both the problems with the K4 and the museum.

Hopefully, the folks in Altoona are past the past and now Andy, Scott, and several other well intended experienced businessmen are working hard to not only repair the damage but also to find all the problems. No one stole any money, No one knowingly wasted any money. As for the museum there just was not enough money and those in charge were not experienced enough to know that if you cannot pay the witholding, you have to say "STOP". Someone did not know that the government is not a bank and it caught up to them.

Regretably what we all now see is the opium of public money, without a sound business plan.

What was more inportant than the money was the fact that none of the political leaders in ALTOONA including Chairman Schuster had the foresight to see that the most important giveback in the Conrail split would have been trackage rights for the K4 to get from Altoona to Tyrone. There is no place to store the k4 at Tyrone or to turn it at Tyrone. Bellefonte has a WYE. But what do you do at Tyrone. The Everett Railroad is not a full answer because the K4 was made to trot not operate at a liesurely gait. But there was no operating plan and there is no operating plan and whatever you want to do with the locomotive is dependent on the fact that it is effectively landlocked in Altoona.

There are many problems, but please consider that Andy was just trying to publicly express what, in the mind of the current management, is the status of an icon.

Please do not shoot the messenger. He was only reacting to my suggestion that he share with this group some "factual" information.



v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net

Bravo, Bennett, for the time and thought to write this.

> 3. The staffing requirements set forth for
> professional recognition of the new museum
> were far beyond the capacity of the town and
> its limited visior base to fund the weekly
> payroll. champain tastes, but with a beer
> pocketbook. Somewhere along the line a lot
> of people were sold a lot of trombones.
> Howard Hill visted Altoona one time too
> many.

HAROLD Hill, Bennett "But ya gotta KNOW the territory!"




RRsteve@aol.com

I appreciate all of the perspectives from inside and outside Altoona. It certainly has added to the collective knowledge. Outside of the concern I mentioned about singling out folks, it has been a relatively healthy discussion.

> I was the person who asked Andy to post
> something on this site to respond
> Surely the intent was not to open Andy to
> the blowtorches.

I am sure it wasn't your intent to open the blow down on Andy. I think the content of his post did that for him. There was no acceptance of fault for anyone or any decision made in Altoona.

> There are just too many of us who would
> rather curse the darkness than light a
> candle. And the discussion in this thread is
> a perfect example.

The communication from Altoona in this thread has clearly cast the darknes upon the NPS. If a candle is to be lit, its light will have to been seen over a period of time and it needs to be lit in Altoona.

> To get the funding for the K4 some people
> believe that Altoona sold its soul to the devil Would you trust a government
> entity to build your house?

No, I wouldn't. By that reasoning, one might conclude that the #1361 project shouldn't have been started.

> IMHO we all suffered with a grand plan
> that would have better been left the way it
> was, because we also got the NPS involved in
> a local park and railfan mecca.

Yes, I hear you on this one. The problem is, you have the Waycross, Rochelle, Deshler and Macungie railfan parks (among others) all providing better serives to the buff. It can be done and there are models to look at. The curve should have 24 hour access of some sort, even if it is stairs. I know that it is MUCH easier to say it than do it, but other places are DOING IT.

> What was more inportant than the money was
> the fact that none of the political leaders
> in ALTOONA including Chairman Schuster had
> the foresight to see that the most important
> giveback in the Conrail split would have
> been trackage rights for the K4 to get from
> Altoona to Tyrone.

Wait. It's already a pork-filled porject and now we should have had more pork?

The most important giveback would have been even stronger language to keep jobs in the locomotive and car shops. #1361 doesn't come close to that level of importance.

>There is no place to
> store the k4 at Tyrone or to turn it at
> Tyrone. Bellefonte has a WYE. But what do
> you do at Tyrone. The Everett Railroad is
> not a full answer because the K4 was made to
> trot not operate at a liesurely gait. But
> there was no operating plan and there is no
> operating plan and whatever you want to do
> with the locomotive is dependent on the fact
> that it is effectively landlocked in
> Altoona.

Honestly, we have to stop thinking of the railfan, like a railfan and as a railfan.

The K4 shouldn't trot? Why not? The biggest money-making tourist railroads in the US trot! When was the last time the Durango & Silverton ran at 60mph?

These are the kinds of lessons that need to be learned. Quick!

Only a buff would care if she did 25 or 55mph. It's the quality of the ride and the experience that counts for the tourist.

Unless she is only going to run once a year, there are not enough buffs - even PRR buffs - to fill the seats. And that kind of one-off will add no $$$ to the local economy.

Maybe the new Altoona board will see fit to build a turntable at Tyrone? I cannot see any reason that they shouldn't be able to solve problems that other tourist railroads deal with day in and day out. Right? She can always run tender-first one way. 150,000 folks at Strasburg don't seem to mind that.

> There are many problems, but please consider
> that Andy was just trying to publicly
> express what, in the mind of the current
> management, is the status of an icon.

And now you have hit the nail on the head. It is not an icon to anyone who is not a PRR fan. To the people who will fill the seats, it is just another steam engine. And if it isn't pulling coaches with clean bathrooms they could care less whether it is a K4 or a GS4 up front.

If it is a true icon, it should have been stuffed and mounted like Southern #1401 or the General so that generations to come will know it as it was. If you can argue that she is a national treasure, then I think one could REALLY argue that this never should have been allowed to happen.

Instead, the engine has gone through hell and has not come back. When it does, it will be a very different beast than when the project started.

We've discussed this before about conservation vs. restoration on RYPN.

I am sorry, but the more I hear about it, the more this sounds like misguided Pennsy fans taking public money so that their favorite engine can run. And nothing more.

> Please do not shoot the messenger. He was
> only reacting to my suggestion that he share
> with this group some "factual"
> information.

And the facts were welcome. There are still more facts out there, and until I hear some that are not accompanied by finger pointing, it will be hard to decipher the emotion from the fact.

It is a very interesting story and one that I am glad everyone has shared perspectives on.

All the best,

Rob Davis

trains@robertjohndavis.com

Rob, I have so far sat this one out since I have no intimate and up front insight into the situation but I am waiting for some political battles to be fought in every organization I am working for now and I have way too much time on my hands so.........

Gotta wonder about some of the comparisons you have suggested. Strasburg? D&S? GENERAL? Certainly food for thought and the basis for some interesting discussions but - really!

I can't argue with the concept that the Altoona folks got into a devil's deal with NPS and perhaps believed a little too much that they were from the government and were actually here to help and knew better what was good for them. I know and respect several good people at Steamtown and generally support them but the structure and organic influences within NPS do not necessarily provide the highest rewards for those who get the most and best done the fastest. Was the fit bad? No, if you look at facilities. Maybe, if you look at organizational styles and conflicting goals.

Leaving that aside, I can't imagine that the rebuilt K4 will be any less itself than GENERAL which was built by the L&N in 1961 with a few used parts. If a K4 was built from drawings today (the British could do it) it would be as much a K4 as 1361 as retired, just more reliable.

What makes it a K4 is its doing what a K4 was built to do - run at speed pulling a passenger train down the heavy rail. Having it ready to run without a track to get out and run on makes it less a K4 than the effects of its rebuilding.

Strasburg is a beautiful and exceptionally successful and well run tourist railroad which reflects the easy going branch line experience, not mainline steam at its zenith. D&S never did run 60 MPH (except for maybe some runaways) but again it isn't K4 territory either, and never was.

Valid questions which are too late to consider may include whether an operating K4 is economically defensible for the Altoona museum or for anybody. Is Pennsylvania blessed with adequate operating steam railroads that an additional one provides less interpretive value than its cost? Other than Steamtown's mainline, where can it run and show itself off to its best advantage? Can NPS manage vicariously other peoples projects using their built-in structure and proceedures?

I have been advised by people who are in a position to know that the Altoona museum does a fine job of interpreting the workers and their lives in the main shops of the standard railroad of the world (some say the rest were De Luxe). Is doing that job enough from a professional and marketing perspective? If a live engine is necessary, would a Goat shifting dead hogs around do the job? Should, in fact, a mainline train ride be a part of the museum's mission?

Again, I need to visit Altoona and see it firsthand so I am just an interested outsider asking these questions. Best wishes to the people working hard to rebuild the finances and credibility of the organization in Altoona and the pile of parts in Scranton.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave,

The second I hit "send" I KNEW the General was a reeeeeeeeeeeealy bad comparison. I know, I know... it's the only 1850's locomotive built in 1961.

My baaaaaaaad.

> Gotta wonder about some of the comparisons
> you have suggested. Strasburg? D&S?
> GENERAL? Certainly food for thought and the
> basis for some interesting discussions but -
> really!

The bad one aside, my point with the D&S and Strasburg was that you can go slow and still entertain thousands. No need to beat your horse into the ground running faster if your audience doesn't care. Andy Muller ran #425 nice and fast on the BM&RDG and now that operation is toast.

> I know and respect
> several good people at Steamtown and
> generally support them but the structure and
> organic influences within NPS do not
> necessarily provide the highest rewards for
> those who get the most and best done the
> fastest.

Absolutely, there are some great folks there (which is why the finger-pointing trend bothered me).

> If a K4 was
> built from drawings today (the British could
> do it) it would be as much a K4 as 1361 as
> retired, just more reliable.

Not to some of the folks with the emotional attachment.

> What makes it a K4 is its doing what a K4
> was built to do - run at speed pulling a
> passenger train down the heavy rail. Having
> it ready to run without a track to get out
> and run on makes it less a K4 than the
> effects of its rebuilding.

I agree on the aesthetics of this. However, in practice, how many operational steamers in anything more than the mainline excursion trade ever significantly top 35-40mph on a regular basis? (and make the season year in and year out?)

Who has figured out a business plan for running steam like this day in and day out in North America?

I would love to see it, but given the problems surrounding this, I would hate to see #1361 sit like #819 rather than have a more sedate second career.

> Best wishes
> to the people working hard to rebuild the
> finances and credibility of the organization
> in Altoona and the pile of parts in
> Scranton.

I agree!

Rob


Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

Greetings to all:

Just a correction regarding the comments that have been posted regarding Horseshoe Curve access and the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum's stewardship of same:

The park site IS open and accessible beyond the normal operating hours. When the staff secures the buildings at closing time (7 p.m. last time I was there about a month ago), someone comes out and opens the gate that gives access from the parking lot to the stairs leading up to the park. You can go up and enjoy the trackside area after the official "closing time" with the understanding that (1) there's no funicular access and everyone climbs the stairs, and (2) there are no services (i.e., since the buildings are closed, so are the rest rooms, water fountains, etc.)

And while we're on the subject of the Curve, the number-one visitor complaint at the site -- grown-up trees and related vegetation obstructing the view, which negates the reason for the park site being there in the first place -- may perhaps grow a *little* less strident these days. The museum's $40,000+ contract with a tree-cutting service has *moderately* opened up *some* vistas. If you're expecting the 1952 Grif-Teller-painting 180-degree clear-cut view, you'll be greatly disappointed, but there is at least a slight improvement. Visitors can once again see a westbound train at the signal bridge (#2416) east of the park, near the former site of Kittanning Point station, but the distant approaches, which fully reveal the amount of rise and fall in track elevation, are still obscured.

And on a still-further-related note. While no one would argue that good decisions led ARMM to its crisis point, please understand that the board guys who have spoken up here (Andy Mulholland and Scott Cessna) are working without pay to turn around an institution that was just days, even hours, away from shutting down.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
Historian for interpretive design at 1992 Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark Visitor Center and for 1998 ARMM museum facility

cupper@att.net

> Bennett, you gave good advice. Unfortunately, it wasn't followed. The problem was the original post did not stick to the facts- one statement was most telling in this regard- the one that told readers to "imagine" what happened.

I've seen your posts/articles before- they are always factual, well thought out and perhaps you'd be a better spokesman for ARRM.



superheater@beer.com

Much like Dave, I sat this out until now too, as I knew none of those involved, and frankly, I have far less experience than the majority of those posting here. On the other hand, maybe that's not so bad, as I don't have any baggage to bring into the discussion, either.

From a guy who is not a PRR fan (I don't hate the PRR either), who has NEVER seen a K4 in operation, and has been to Altoona exactly twice in his life (three times, if you count passing through on the old Broadway Limited), I just don't understand why there is such a need to put this thing in operation. Look at the postings we have all put on here, and how often they conflict: we have guys who are constantly saying how we have too much mainline steam: heck we just lost one dandy of a loco in 1522 to insurance and other very REAL issues, and yet here we still argue about a locomotive that STILL doesn't have a place to run, even if it came out of the backshop tomorrow.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the future of rail is, IMHO, NOT in mainline steam fan trips. They just don't pay anymore; and anyone who expects them to do more than break even should be thrown in with the wackos who think the same of AMTRAK. Please read this next line: I AM NOT AGAINST STEAM. I AM NOT AGAINST OPERATING STEAM. But the fact of the matter remains that the logistics of doing it with a locomotive that doesn't have a ton of cash, operational and maintenance experience, and YES, political clought (be it with the railroads, the rail preservation movement, or the towns and states where they operate) seems to me to be an exercise in futility. What I am hearing is a bunch of kids fighting over ownership and operation of what amounts to be, in very simplified terms, a 1:1 scale Lionel train set.

As a railfan working in museum environment that does not solely around rail preservation has been very enlightening. It has taught me a lot about what does and doesn't make sense to visitors. Guess what people: 99.9% of our visitors don't care what a K4 is (or in our case, a 2-4-0 Porter), and many of them never will, no matter how hard you try to argue why they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. What they see is STEAM, pure and simple. Dave has successfully proven that something as diminutive as a work-a-day shop goat can have the same kind of drawing power. Marty Knox and the guys at Huckleberry get as much or more appreciation with a 3-footer that has less than 4 miles of track!

As a complete outisder, I think those in the know in Altoona need to concentrate on the greatest aspect of that storied community, THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED AND WORKED THERE, and stick with it. It tells a story that happened at places all across the country, even lowly Port Huron; its a story that thousands can relate to: not because they did or didn't work for the PRR, or that they ever road behind a K4; but because they had similar positions (or have relatives that did) as the guys that this museum documents. Less a shrine to the PRR, I think of it as a shrine to the average working railroader, something that is sorely needed. It takes those storied engineers out of their lofty cabs and gives us insight into their daily lives. Do they need a K4 pulling tourists to tell this tale? Obviously they believe so, I just am obviously missing the need that they so readily see.

Maybe instead of sinking money into steam locomotives that may (possibly) stretch their legs twice a year, we should be sinking money into the hundreds of railroader's timebooks that pop-up on ebay every month that never sell. A slice of a man's LIFE sits in those things; they tell every engine he ran, every train he took, the very wage he was paid. They tell us who ran those lovely K4's, when and where they were run, and what trains they most often headed. Instead of preserving priceless pieces of history such as these, we instead sit here and fight over what engine (flavor) of the month is happening now. When was the last time you got a steam mechanic on tape? You want preservation? THERE'S YOUR PRESERVATION. IMHO, a K4, or any locomotive for that matter, is just a piece of iron/ steel without the story of the guys who repaired and operated them. And here we sit, while the last of those guys die off, while their widows throw away priceless photos and momentoes because all we seem to do is throw ourselves on the altar of steam. Kinf of petty, don't you think. Maybe its true; you can never appreciate what is there until its (or their) gone.

I'm done. Time for bed.

TJG


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

TJ again makes a most interesting point and one I am prepared (having armor plated jeans) to expand on: Would we have a healthier industry if we had fewer mainline operating steam locomotives?

Consider:

1. Capitalization cost per engine is high and there are (by law) only a few short years to not only recover it but fund the next rebuild.

2. Ther are many fewer potential excursion opportunities to be operated on today's mainline railroads.

3. Other costs of excursion operation (like insurance) have risen to make even successful former limited operating schedules no longer fiscally feasable.

4. As a result, to earn its keep a steam locomotive in mainline excursion service must run more trips with more butts in seats or paid photo pass holders lineside then ever before while having higher incidental costs to otherwise cover as well.

Half a dozen ready to run mainline excursion engines may all starve. Two mainline excursion engines may break even. Are we killing our industry by providing too many available resources at great cost for a market that is much smaller than requires those resources? Have we in fact created a competetion amongst ourselves in an arena where competetion for excursion opportunities is financially an untenable approach for us all?

I'd like to suggest we might work on a couple things. First, let's try to expand the envelope by encouraging the development of more excursion opportunities and exactly quantify the amount of operating that is available out there, perhaps on an annual basis. Then, let's try to rationalize the entrance and exit of the mainine operating locomotives from the fleet such that there is adequate market share to support only those certified to operate at any given time. Hopefully, if one breaks down there will be another available to cover but without too much extra expensive margin built in. Then, we can quantify the rebuild capitalization cost and operating expenses and figure out how many units can comprise the fleet without reaching the critical point of overload.

If we plan the fleet to operate excursions on a national basis rather than regional, with fewer potential operators for hire at any given time, there just might be enough for everybody to take a turn avery couple decades for a few years and pay for themselves.

Yeah, I am proposing cooperation and unemotional management. Radical.

Additonal upsides might be having 20 years to do your restoration without time pressure. Let's say your mechanical is done, in fact everything but the Form 4 and tube job. Just sit back and wait your turn. Your locomotive is now a great museum display while you prepare. A couple months before your turn comes up, you do the tube job, file the Form 4, and you are set to go.

It is easy to plan and manage a known program or quanntity. It is difficult to try to manage around a series of unknowns and criticals. Is it worth a shot?

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave makes a wonderful arguement. Here is another possible upside: consistent locomotive usage, wear, and maintenance. Here is a possible scenario, with 5 possible locomotives (I'm not playing favorites, unless its subliminal).

Say we divide the trips into four reigions instead of two: Southwest/ Southeast, West/ Pacific Northwest, Midwest/ Central, and East/ Northeast.

In any given year, four steamer represent a given area, and are given say, three year turns. If it started next year, here's how it might go:

Southwest/ Southeast: 2003-2006- T&NO 745

2007-2010- L&N 152

2011-2014- A&WP 290

West/ Pacific Northwest: 2003-2006- Santa Fe 3751

2007-2010- SP 4449

2011-2014- SP&S 700

Midwest/ Central: 2003-2006- Frisco 1522

2007-2010- PM 1225

2011-2014- NKP 587 or 765

East/ Northeast: 2003-2006- Reading 2102

2007-2010- PRR 1361

2011-2014- B&M 3713

Again, this is totally hypothetical, but it could work. Yes, many would complain,but think of the anticipation of waiting for "your locomotive" to take "Its turn" in the lineup. Another added benefit is that your not using the same loco over and over, and so people don't get tired of seeing the same locomotive year after year. It give those operating and maintenaning this engines realistic time frame goals as well. As an added bonus, the next "engine in line" could be the backup as well.

Just a thought.

TJG

Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

T.J.,

I toast the very concept of your idea, that all of us in love with old machines could participate in such cooperation.

Now THAT would be quite a step forward!I think it can be done to a very large extent. We need to find the right seeds to plant now.

Rob

Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

Ok, TJ, where in your proposal is there a definition of the size of the market as the basis for maintaining this larger number of locomotives in service for a more limited time each? Doesn't seem to address the issue I was trying to, which is primarily a market driven fiscal rather than geographic one.

It does bring to mind another issue maybe worth considering: does size matter? Here we have 152 in the same list as 3751. I consider 152 a branchline excursion engine, unlike the big hulking modern 4-8-4's and their ilk. Is it easier to find shortline track for lighter stuff to run on? Maybe instead of big stuff we sould be looking at the light pacifics, consolidations, logging mikes, ten wheelers et al. Or, does the size of the train they can pull effectively limit the return to untenable?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net