Having been a web software developer (when I'm not scraping rust off of sheet metal) for many years, I have been following this discussion, and the forum updates suggested with some interest.

While I agree that updating the functionality of the forums and categorizing them beyond just "classifieds" and "everything else" would be a great improvement, I don't think the suggestion of requiring a paid membership is going to be workable. While it may have the effect of keeping some of the "foaminess" from appearing, it will also have the tendency to drive off many users who don't say much but do follow the discussion of restoration and restoration technology with interest. I can see someone saying, "Well I could use this $50 to be on RYPN, or I could use the $50 towards the restoration of X and just call the people I know for advice." I do think the concept of forming a new 501(c)(3) to manage the site and collect donations for it's maintenance (as well as any other necessary expenses) would be workable, since quite a few people in this industry / hobby are quite willing to donate towards useful projects, especially if there is an archival system built into the forum for easy future research.

In terms of the content of the forums themselves, I too have noticed an increase in the "armchair quarterback" mentality seen in posts. It's great to know exactly how many rivets tender X should have on it's left side, but IMHO unless you're willing to get out there and needle scale off that rust, weld, and paint, you really haven't earned enough sweat-equity to complain. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but please keep it polite when you're expressing yourself.

Quite willing to put my name on it,
Lewis Foster

Shop it around. It may vary from state to state. I think one group I'm with (with six figures in assets) pays about $550 a year in the People's Republic of Maryland.

Along those lines since this is a national/international site, some states such as Wyoming and Nevada offer more protection built in by statute for directors and officers.

Would I pay an annual subscription? yes

Would I like to see real names required? yes (although Rich Melvin has a backdoor system of real names on the OGR Forum where pseudonyms are still acceptable, but the mods pretty much know who people are... and I dare say Rich's forums are among the best moderated and focused on the 'net today)

Rob

The most RyPN users logged in at one time has been 334. At a simple DONATION of $10.00 per user per year, we just raised $3,340.00. I have no idea how many actual users there are. Further, I can promise, there are plenty of people and businesses that frequent this page that raising an addition $2,000.00-$3,000.00 from the same would be simple and painless.

My point is: I don't think that REQUIRING payment to be on board is the key. Donations made to a well established Non-profit would suffice. Additionally, there was a comment that is correct in respect to the laws of Wyoming. Wasatch Railroad Contractors is an established registered Corporation in the State of Wyoming. Our company is managed by a 5 person Board of Directors, who have very limited liability in the company. A well written Terms and Conditions for RyPN, with a Board of Directors and a basic and simple insurance package would suffice.

Mr. Superheater,

Our company credit cards have been compromised five times in 13 years during travel to distant locations. Our banks have paid out well over $10,000.00 in stolen purchases not related to our company.

If I had to choose between swiping my credit card at a restaurant or putting my full identity on RyPN, I would choose putting my full identity on RyPN. If you are that scared of showing who you are, my feeling is, you need not be here. Our CITO has never once seen any of our information compromised on any railfan forum page. Your basis for not posting your full identity is as faceless as your inability to post who you are.

It is a great honor to be out at railfan events and have people come up to me and say "I enjoy your posts on RyPN." When I ask them who they are, I generally get their name, but never their cover name. Later on, I get mail that says, "we met at such and such event....remember?" "No, actually, I don't remember because you never shared your full identity with me." I enjoy getting to know people and I meet so many people, there is no way to remember names and cover names and who belongs to what.

Truthfully, I could care less if the moderators know who is behind a name. When I am engaged in a discussion, I want to know who is behind the name. If you are that confident in what you have to say, you need to be confident enough to be proud of who you are!


The rules:

In my book, the Terms and Conditions for using the page would be this simple;

This is a gentleman's page. We use our full names, we address each other as Mr. or Mrs. We debate in full respect to the debate. The first violation where-in somebody feels intimidated or slandered for any reason is dismissed. We can debate TOPICS and we can disagree on TOPICS, but when we begin to question ACTIONS, or INTENTIONS or begin to hurt FEELINGS, we have crossed the line. It is that simple.

Good points, John.

Back in the "old days" there was a voluntary contribution fund for RYPN, and quite a few of us did support it.

Rob

Earlier there was discussion about bad behavior on the forum. Here are my thoughts about how to behave:

• If you criticize, always follow it with a constructive suggestion.

• Before you criticize, first say something positive.

• Lead by setting a good example. If the board gets over-run with bad joke-tellers, set an example by posting something on a topic that is serious, well-researched, and informative. Others will follow your lead, and soon the jokesters will vanish.

• Still waters run deep; don't post too much. Before you post, think hard whether it contributes something meaningful.

As for disclosure of full names, I don't think that's a realistic demand on a public site that is searchable via google. I would like to see a person's age, though. Age says a lot about maturity.

As for my background, I am in my mid-40's. I'm not interested in fan trips, live steam, or excursions. My greatest thrill comes from seeing a restored wooden freight car parked safely indoors. I don't volunteer much because of career, family, other demands. But I have donated money to preservation in 2012, I imagine more than many people have.

Dear FLO

You said “ I would like to see a person's age, though. Age says a lot about maturity." I will always remember the Army medivac pilot who would not take landing instruction from a 13 year old helping a volunteer fire department and nearly landed himself in power poles. The pilot’s bias nearly killed people. We do not need that anywhere. Ironically the kid was qualified to signal the medivac in and was wearing the designated attire. Any discrimination needs to be avoided including age.

Robby Peartree

There are several segments to this debate, and I'm going to address them separately. First, ANONYMITY.

There is NO correlation between anonymity and discourtesy.

Does not exist. It's an illusion - funny, but false. It is a false controversy. Forcing real names Does Not Help, people are just as rude. This has been tried. (honestly, have you ever read Facebook discussions, where anonymity is impossible? Movie stars get into nasty flamewars!)

That is because you have done NOTHING about the underlying cause of disruptive behavior. It does not work the way you think. You want to scapegoat a few throwaway people. The bad news is, you can't. The good news is, it's not about people, it's about behavior - so when a person acts up, we can forgive. More on that in another message. Back to anonymity.

Internet security is my profession. And here's a reality check: Managing your privacy and affairs online is an extremely complicated issue. There are entire books written on exactly how to represent yourself online. Nobody really knows for sure what the answer is. Everybody has to work out for themselves, and all responsibility for the result falls on them alone. So when you casually insist on real names, you are being very selfish and disrespectful. Especially since it makes no difference to rudeness.

It also makes no difference as to the accuracy or correctness of what you say.

One quick item to consider, if a "subscription" model is imposed:

Some of those with the most information to share--the guys in the shops, the car/loco owners, etc.--have the least incentive to pay, as frankly they're most likely not getting anything of actual value from the site.

Think, for example, of the Strasburg's photo-heavy "shops updates." Basically, they're good PR for the shops, as well as maybe a little bit of ego gratification and info sharing. They do so largely out of the kindness of their hearts (mixed with a touch of marketing, I'm sure). You don't see these folks asking much in the way of info, but their willingness to share what they know, as well as their professional, "real world" experiences, make them extremely valuable as information sources.

And then you're going to ask them to pay $XX a year? That's kind of like asking a teacher to pay to teach the class.

Robert and Ron,

Having been through the "real names" issues as both a moderator/owner of other forums, I respectfully suggest that you are missing the point.

Does using real names make an ass behave like a prince? Does it make a fool's advice correct? Of course not, that is not the point.

It does, however, seem to limit potshots and it certainly limits the chances of having chronic anonymous flame throwers.

Again, I only speak from personal experience.

Is it foolproof? No.

But afterwhile, the membership sees the benefit and self-policing takes over.

It creates an expectation of decorum.


Again, I suggest looking at what Rich Melvin has done with OGR. It's not a pure "real name" play but it works well.

Rob

May I take a moment to clarify my position on the matter of cover names. It is a struggle for me to call this anonymity. If you want to be that anonymous, DON'T POST! Further, it has been made clear that the moderators know who you are. So, the reality is; Somebody knows who you are, why don't the rest of us?

May second even more compelling issue is as follows; I have never had a conversation with a Superheater. I have worked on them, I have welded on them, I have hydro tested them, I have scrapped them, but I have never had an intellectual discussion with one, nor have I debated one, nor will I ever debate one. The internet is a social tool used for bringing all of us closer, as if we were face to face, in the same room as it were.

During my years as Executive Vice President at a leading Utah Collage (now University) I debated strongly against on-line classes. My feeling is, as it remains today that a significant aspect of education is the social aspect combined with personal one-on-one interaction and communication. At the time we had facts in front of us that showed that when a person was allowed to type their feelings of disdain or hatred against an opposing view, they were far more willing to be harmful than when placed in a situation where face-to-face contact was a mandatory aspect of the discussion. The same is true with this forum.

When we equate each other as human beings, who have real names, are real people and are people with whom we may actually come in contact with, face-to-face, I think it is imperative that we sustain the idea that communication is held between two beings that share a common thread of communication. In our case it is the forum. Well, as such, a common thread of our interaction is the fact that we are actual people, making actual comments. Not faceless locomotive sub assemblies from an unknown manufacturer.

My primary reason behind the requirement that "some name" should be used stems from a social response, not an effort to curtain rudeness. It is true, those who can not be gentleman never will be.

On the issue of age. There are a few among us who are in their teens. In an effort to maintain my own policy of not belittling others, I will simply say that I know first hand of a few posters on this forum that are younger than 18 years old, but, that write better, present themselves better, make more intelligent comments than others twice or even three times their age! Age should not be any determining factor on admission to this forum. I personally will never suggest age limits to admission to this page or any other.

In an effort to be fair in the debate. I venture a guess that the issue of cover names would be split 50/50 if presented to the entire body for a vote. This is a debate I would be be prepared to budge on, but, I think the vote would be very close and I venture further that it may swing my direction. Go look at all of the posts this evening. My simple count shows more people using full names than those who do not. May I be clear on one final issue; Kelly Lynch, a hero of mine uses the title of NathanSixChime, however, Kelly always signs his posts, Kelly Lynch. To this I would be fine. But I maintain; a Superheater is something I have worked on, not something I have held a discussion with.

Back to the discussion of where this goes from here.........

Very kindly submitted,

I'm in substantial agreement with John's eloquent above post but as confession is good for the soul I must admit that on a number of occassions I have had weighty conversations with C&O 614 and believe she has been involved in the 2 way dialouge??

But John's main point is well taken. I've never conversed with the 614 on RyPN and don't think that will ever happen.

Real names will help keep it real!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

John has brought up some excellent points in this discussion. Unfortunately the rudeness and "internet manners" he describes now exist in many aspects of preservation and railroad historical group activities. People who are volunteering their time and information do not have to put up with rude treatment, they often chose not to participate instead.

And when they don't participate, the preservation groups and tourist operators lose access to their information, their experience, and their industry contacts. And in some cases that makes identification and procurement of suitable repair parts or acceptable substitutes more difficult, results in equipment out of service, and runs the risk that fantrips may not operate, or that restoration projects may be far more difficult and expensive to complete.

And for the people and organizations that are openly rude to industry persons and retirees. letting them talk to your answering service (repeatedly) is a good lesson, particularly when they are looking for somebody to drive across a half dozen states and save their butts from an emergency that resulted from their own lack of planning. So nice that phones have caller ID these days.

PC