Yes it was stupid to let the organization cease to exist due to a temporary threat made but not acted upon.

To create a tax exempt non profit organization costs probably a couple hundred bucks to incorporate, $850 to file the Form 1023, and at least $500 to prepare that form and follow through on it. So probably $1,500 would be required to reinstate RYPN when all that would have been necessary to keep the old corporation in existence would be to occasionally send a statement of continued existence to the state of incorporation and file a form 990-N with the IRS. It is "stupid" to waste that much money and to go through all that work again, pure and simple!

On the flip side, an organization having a history of directors who run at the first sign of trouble is not an organization that I would want to support.

Removed by original poster.

Happily that's not quite what happened. There were resignations from the board, yes. I was one of them. I should NEVER have accepted appointment in the first place. Lacking D&O insurance, ANY thing that would have brought me in to court would have bankrupted my family. And I simply could not risk that. And so I resigned.

I never quite figured out what the point of the 501C3 was in any case. It cost next to nothing to keep RyPN running. In the four or five years my business hosted it, I don't think we ever charged a dime for our services.

And since my business folded, David Collison, our webmaster has been hosting the site somewhere, also at little or no cost as I understand it.

RyPN essentially runs on the same guidelines that it did when Hume Kading owned it. Same TOS, same guidelines. Recreating a 501C3 would be a waste of time, money and effort, and in my opinion insure the demise of RyPN.

A 501C3 typically has a board of directors which is responsible to some "membership". We have no membership. Let's assume that everyone who is registered as an RyPN user is grandfathered in as "members" of RyPN. The board will doubtless want to implement ByLaws to keep the masses from voting on anything, because the foamers outnumber the preservationists by a huge margin.

And if anyone ever stops thinking, when they approve new member registrations, then the spammers will outnumber us all.

When Hume Kading first handed the hosting of RyPN over to me, he was seriously thinking of simply closing the whole thing, or at minimum removing everything but the Interchange itself. Everything, every single thing he told me was going to happen to RyPN did happen exactly as forecast. And none of them were good.

So here we have a thread, debating what "we" should do with RyPN and dissecting its ills. By my count this is the seventh such thread since 2004. So we average slightly less than one per year.

Reading through this thread, I see that we should (a) use real names; (b) not use real names, but have them available if anybody looks; or (c) allow complete anonymity.

Real names are completely unenforceable. You want to mail me a photocopy of your driver's license before I approve your registration. Nope. Didn't think so. Or perhaps we could require a background check (sans drug testing) before your registration gets approved. There are commercial firms that do a dandy job of this. Just deposit $85.00 to our Paypal account when you register. Anonymity, or some degree of it is an inescapable fact.

But let's assume that "we" decide we have to have real names. So we wipe out the existing registration database and let people re-register with their "real" names. "We" come up with a plan that we believe will work. We'll just delete any user when we find out that they aren't who they say they are. We'll appoint a research team to monitor postings for hints of dreaded "aliases". Sound workable. Who, exactly are you going to get to do the extra work involved in this? Why would they want to expend the time necessary to participate in what "we" will call "The RyPN Identity Police".

Secondly "we" seem to thing three things simultaneously. First and foremost "heavy handed and hamfisted moderation is ruining RyPN"; secondly "the moderators are doing a good job"; and third "Moderators need to be much more draconian in getting rid of foamers".

All three of the above ideas are expressed in this thread an in other threads like it over the years. The moderators have a set of guidelines that they follow. You may have read them, though in a fair number of instances, I doubt this.

To the "heavy handed moderation" faction: "Nonsense, twaddle and poppycock". Moderation of a posting on RyPN is an extremely rare event. Extremely rare. All such events are logged. And I can read the logs at will (and just did). Another assertion made was "Moderators should only act when there's a request to do so." Guess what? You've just described exactly what DOES happen. The number of moderation events (now there's a great euphemism) that aren't preceded by requests, PMs and complaints is a microscopically small number.

One of the problems with running any forum (including RyPN) is that there will always exist a fair number of posters who believe that they are not and should not be limited by any "guidelines". Inform them that they are violating guidelines and you'll engage in an endless and purposeless argument. The simple answer is this: if you don't like the guidelines here or anywhere else, leave! Go start your own forum with your own guidelines. It's a very Darwinian process...survival of the fittest and if that takes RyPN out of the equation, so be it.

Having said all that, the good news is this: I have absolutely no authority (or desire) to change anything. Though I am a "Site Administrator" that exists primarily to allow me to approve new registrations. And I do. At least once a day.

If you can convince David Collison that changes need to be made, and that somehow it is worth his time, energy and the misery people will inflict upon him because of any potential change then go for it. But he's busier than I am, and has little time to donate, last I heard.

I am probably foolish for posting this, but here's the bottom line:

RyPN is what it is. Love it, leave it or ignore it. If you can do better then by all means do so, somewhere else.

From what I understood when the not for profit was created, it would allow for tax deductible contributions to be made to support the operation of the site, and I thought that there were ideas to expand beyond the forum and do other things for which a non profit structure would be beneficial. That was my understanding at least.

A non profit organization does not need have members. Many do not. Two of which I sit on the boards of do not, one other does. In the two, the board makes all of the decisions, but of course the volunteers do participate if informally.

I tend to agree with everything in Mr. Bailey's latest post.

The way I read this thread, there are at least a few of us on here that are not at all upset with the forum itself, or how it's run, or how the moderators handle things. The only problem I have with it is the content from people who either tend to take topics off-topic very very quickly or are disrespectful of others.

My goal for this thread, as a result, would be that others would read it and consider whether or not what they're posting is worth posting before putting it out there for others to read. And nothing more.

On the subject of real names, while I respect the opinions of the more experienced members on here with regards to wanting real names, I would say that if a "real names only" policy were implemented, I would leave. And I would be okay if you were okay with that or if you didn't care. It's a difference of opinion, and if those who are making the rules decide that, so be it. I am, however, a real person, and I do have an online reputation to build with this "anonymous", if you want to call it that, name. You can easily go search it and see other things I've done, other things I've written, and even some of the music I listen to, and I would be happy to connect my online name with my own if you meet me in person. I have no qualms about that.

But plain and simple, if I'm online, I don't want to use my real name unless I have to for work.

Part of that is that a large chunk of my day job involves handling and guarding sensitive data and implementing access controls. I do not like having to have those responsibilities apply to my personal data. I like to leave that with work and not have to worry about it. And the only way I feel able to do that is by not using personal data for personal use in an online setting. It takes much of the worry away, and leaves me with just the purely social obligations you would get if you met someone in person. I feel obligated to be polite and keep my online reputation good - I have a lot of data I've posted with this nickname, which I would lose if I changed to a different one. Data security at RyPN does not concern me, since personal data would be mostly limited to my name and location, but since I've used this name in other places online, you *can* associate an identity from that. You can tell a lot more about me online from the name "tyrok1" than you can from my real name. So, in a way, it's a lot more of a "real" identity online than if I were to use my "real" offline name which has little to nothing to judge my reputation on.

That said, another large part of it is that I have different groups in real life - be it family or friends - that I do not want to have associated with other groups, and I feel that should be extendable to an electronic medium. As an example, I don't particularly feel the need to let other animators (go look it up - you'll find it by my nickname - I used to work as an animator) knowing where and when I am going to be in real life for volunteering. If that were outside the computer, the access control is the physical proximity to the original conversation - if I am talking with someone at a train show or at the railroad I volunteer at, people in a visual effects convention in California at the time do not hear what's going on. I know who's listening. Online has no such distinction. Everything you say in a public forum is not just to the group you're talking to - it's being published to every anonymous reader who wants to read it. In real life, you at least have an idea who you're talking to. Online, you have to assume you're talking to everyone in the entire world. And I am uncomfortable with that - it's a convenience in "offline" life that does not accurately translate to public forums like this one.

So, as a result, if the decision is made, I would leave. In a heartbeat. I know no one making that decision will be offended if I leave, and I would hope they wouldn't and would wish them well going forward. But it's not my policy to make. This forum is incredibly valuable, and an excellent help, but I feel strongly enough about this issue to personally leave the resources this forum provides and return to only ever discussing things with "real life" people who I personally know.

Anyway, to return to the topic at hand, I do believe the problem is not with the administration/moderators. It is with us, the posters. And until we can get our acts together, and keep them together, we're going to continue having these discussions. Which I don't have a problem with either. It's an awareness thing, and just having these discussions reminds people that, yes, we're real people. Be decent.

Wow, I've been off the grid all weekend, lots of interesting replies to come back to.

The "real names" discussion does indeed come up about once a year. I'll be honest, I don't really have an opinion on the matter. I've seen plenty of people act like idiots using their real names on here. If nothing else, it makes it easier to know who to launch a piece of ballast at when you meet them in person. On the other hand, there have been great contributors that choose not to share their real names. A well-known and possibly schizophrenic Eastern PA railfan likes to make up personas with incredibly detailed back-stories and online presence to cause trouble here on at least an annual basis, but I think folks have gotten pretty good at picking up on him over the years.

My concern, as I tried to spell out at the beginning of this thread, was what the content of RYPN has degraded to. Personally, I don't believe that this has anything to do with how the board is moderated, or whether pseudonyms are allowed. Perhaps these issues are inherently linked, but I don't think that's the case.

A note to Mr. Bailey - I'm sorry that you seem rather put-off by this discussion, but the intent of my comments were in no way a critique of how RYPN is (or isn't) run. As another poster pointed out, the problem is the posters, not the medium which they post to. I had hoped I was clear that I was not criticizing the moderators of this board. In fact, I think they do a pretty darn good job, thanks. Surely it isn't their job to "steer" discussion. In my opinion, we, collectively, need to better utilize the Interchange for what I think it was built for: sharing of information directly related to Railway Preservation.

I've gotten a few kind back-channel notes (thanks guys), but after sifting through the four pages of chatter here it seems most people are far more passionate about the "real name" issue than any re-focus of content. Not having a dog in this fight, I'll quietly return to the back of the classroom and shut up now.

TB

The off-site communications are the way that many questions raised on RYPN get handled now. RYPN has provided a place for people seeking information to ask for assistance, and that is an important contribution to preservation. From that point on, how the people willing to help want to proceed is up to them. There is much more activity and participation in response to questions than is evident in the discussions. Many times the response is by PM or e-mail, to avoid the "noise" that often results from making the reply public on this site. Nobody has any obligation to help, but frequently they do, and the dart throwers have no right to see the response or benefit from the information, and increasingly often they do not get to see what was provided. That is an earned consequence of their own behavior.

PC

And at times, this is curious.

I have received quite a few back-channel inquiries regarding quite specific technical questions regarding places or operations I've been involved with or are close to me. None of these questions, save one years ago involving a potential diesel donation (that later happened), was anything that mandated any kind of secrecy; the most recent was "one of your guys posted a YouTube video of casting a babbitt bearing; what was that stuff in the caulk gun, some kind of silicone? And can you use that instead of babbitt putty?" (Answer: yes, high-temperature silicone subs for the "bear poop" putty.)

Now, I can see holding aside a truly specific question to private communications ("When converting a Brill truck from 5" x 9" bearing to 4 1/2" x 10" bearings, do you...."), and ditto sensitive information. But, as an example, that casting question has the potential to elicit more specific information from others, or alternatives that work better in the 21st century, or even corrections to the "historical" record. And I don't work in that shop, anyway--it took a couple phone calls to get the right answer.

If you think your question is too narrowly focused to be applicable to the public at large, remember: This forum isn't the public at large. I see queries that I find too specialized for my use on this forum all the time. With one poster, more than half the time I can't even make heads or tails of what he's asking or saying. So what do we do? The same thing I was told repeatedly when a former past poster here would flood the forum with dozens of links to old photos at once: ignore them, move on to the stuff you care about, and shut up. (Yes, I was explicitly told the latter by vintage-photo fans.)

I frequent a couple of other railroad forums in addition to RyPN and I believe I understand most of the concerns aired here in this thread. While some off-topic (OT and I have participated! LOL!) along with foamer-ish content does indeed exsist here, I would say that it doesn't run as rampant as in other places. With that said, I'll admit that I have only been a member of this forum for a short time in comparison.

I check this forum every time I get on my computer (sick, I know!). I enjoy RyPN. I believe that the Interchange is fine the way it is. Other forums are so organized and split up that you can miss out on a lot of content. RyPN's Interchange enables the user to see all the current topics at once. From there, you can choose what you want to look at. If you're not interested, you can move on. I find that the search feature works and has been a starting point for me when looking for information.

I try to take in as much as I can, but will offer up information on topics with which I am familiar. A lieutenant from FDNY once said, "It's the responsibility of the senior men to pass down their knowledge and experience. If you're a senior guy and you're not doing that, then you're not doing your job." I agree with that and truely appreciate the information posted here by the real pro's. I hope you continue to share.

Speaking of learning from others, this is a "why didn't I think of that" moment. Can you share the make, model and supplier info on that high temp silicone?

Kelly,

A couple of things come to mind:

Red Devil #0809/01, Hi-Temp Red silicone w/ iron oxide, good for up to 500 constant and 600 intermittent degrees

or 3M Fire Block Sealant #FB 136 silicate refractory sealant, good to 2000 deg and non-expandable.

Both come in tubes and both available from many HVAC suppliers, particularly Johnstone Supply.

Howard P.

If I tell the guys in that shop that someone from the Strasburg RR shops was asking for suggestions from THEIR shop, I'm afraid someone's head is not going to be able to fit through the door. >;-D

Anyhow, see for yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hojtemtiSd8

The guy in the video is one of our "young guns."

This has come up numerous time here and on many other forums. I'm in favor of real names, except when there are compelling reasons you must post under a Pseudonym. Many of you may recall the late Danny Boehr (sp?) who posted on his blog and my website as "Al Tuner". His position with Amtrak would not allow him to reveal his real name. In a situation like that, requiring real names effectively bans the person from participating. There are others in the same type of situation. Maybe they work for one of the well known tourist railways and don't want to be seen as speaking for the organization.

In any case, there's something to consider which pretty much renders the debate pointless. Ok, so the "powers that be" create a rule that says "YOU MUST USE YOUR REAL NAMES!". Great... How do you enforce it?

The ONLY way I've ever seen it done is on a professional photography forum. Members of the organization pay a couple hundred dollars per year to join the organization and the forum membership is just a small part of the member benefits. Your membership is tied into your registration and presumably verified with your credit card info.

Aside from doing it that way, there's no effective means to enforce it. How do you determine what a person's real name is? Who gets to go through all that hassle?

Since it's essentially impossible to enforce, creating any rule requiring it is pretty much pointless. The folks who will comply would do so anyway, and the trolls who want to raise havoc would simply find a way to spoof the system.

Sincerely,
Alexander Hamilton.

> The most RyPN users logged in at one time has been 334.


If things work the same way here that they do on the 7 discussion forums I operate, the log files would most likely show that at least 50 percent of those "users" are actually Google Bots and other internet spiders crawling the site for search engines.

Nothing wrong with that, but they won't be contributing financially.

As somebody who moderates a variety of boards on a daily basis, I can offer a few comments.

1) Don't pass judgement on the mods until you've done the job for a year or more.

2) There is no correct way to moderate.

3) When half the people are mad because you moderate too much and other half are mad because you don't moderate enough, you're probably doing it about right.

4) People will always tell you how to do you job, but rarely have any useful suggestions.

5) What they say they want and what they really want are two different things.
"Your railroad photography sight should be moderated, you've got too many crappy photos on there!" "OK, so I should make it like Railpictures and approve all the photos?" "Oh no! Don't do that! I hate that place, they rejected my photos!" "OK so then don't moderate it?" "NO, it should be moderated, just not MY photos..."