Hi Les:
Willis Short Line No. 200 was personally purchased by Herbert N.W. Hansen, who at that time was President of the Illinois Railway Museum. He bought it sight unseen. At some point after the purchase he hired someone (Wilbur Golson,the former State Trooper from Louisiana Eastern?) to look it over and take some photos. The locomotive had been scrapped in place (no, it didn't roll into the flooded gravel pit!).
In 1980, Dennis Daugherty and I visited the spot where it had sat and found asbestos (not naturally occuring in Louisiana to my knowledge) on the ground along with scraps of sheet metal.
J.David

A pity? Maybe. Lamentable? Certainly, to "slobbering Pennsy fanatics" as they call themselves. A crime? Not until someone paid the PRR the value of said locomotive and the RR scrapped it anyway.

The more I see hysterical fans on Facebook and other forums insist on trying to save every last thing and call it "criminal" for a railroad to salvage its own assets as it chooses, the more I'm tempted to start lighting campfires with old RR timetables just to annoy them.

Interesting... I was wondering what had become of those two cars. It's unfortunate that a home hasn't been found for them, they're pretty unique. I found a blog post from 2010 with some photos:

http://blog.blueion.com/2010/09/13/old-charleston-streetcars/

Dave -

I don't think it's a "crime" that the Pennsy didn't save one of these engines. I think that the management of the railroad in those days, did a heck of a job in preserving what they did. It could even be argued that perhaps they did the BEST job of steam preservation because they kept an example of each type, sometimes more than one example. Saying that, should they have also saved a Q? A T-1? A J-1? Both the Q and T-1's were Pennsy designs; but both were less than successful. Hard to have such an example in the collection. The J-1 was not a PRR design, as stated above, although there were PRR refinements. Moreover, the locomotive was very successful, with 125 examples roaming all over the railroad. Should one have been saved? My thinking is YES. As a fitting end to the steam era. The earlier statements as to why one was not included makes me feel a bit better about the railroads decision. Not "criminal"; just common sense.

Les

This reminds me of what might be the mother of all 'almost made it' stories.

There is some correspondence in the PRR motive-power department files at the Hagley related to attempts to preserve the S1 -- it had been such a memorable symbol of American Railroads at the Fair; it was a generation's concept of high-speed steam; etc.

Problem was that the scrap value was listed at somewhere north of $31,000 and change. That's more than 1.5 million in today's money... probably didn't help that the locomotive had been neglected for so long, either. And so...

I'm sure people on here can amplify this story or correct its details.


RME

Apparently PRR thought about what to do with the S1 for a long time since it was last operated in 1945 or early '46 and not scrapped until 1949.

Let's remember "it's a crime" is often just a euphemism for anything people strongly dislike or disagree with. I think it's understood there's always a bit of hyperbole in play when it's used. I don't think anyone can legitimately complain about the efforts PRR went to in saving an example of most of its significant steam locomotive types, and how lucky we are, IMHO, to have most of those in one place to view together and contrast, etc.

Now I'd be happy to sit on the jury in the case of "Steam Locomotive Fans vs. New York Central" any day.

Thank you for pointing out the euphemism of speech. I would be classified as a "drooling Pennsy nut", but guess I can respect the decision not to save the bigger power based on cost alone...except to say that when a locomotive design was heralded as the greatest innovation in steam technology, and here the T1 and S1 might apply, as many reasons to save an example could be lofted as those to not. Both were sweepingly different in architecture, and both were advertised to beat the band. I guess the point is, Pennsy had so many ventures into raising steam propulsion in its hey-day, most people wish they could examine each today. And while I'm tossing about the Pennsy's wealth for my own pleasure, allow me to save the S2 turbine, a Q2 and a J1.

Dick -

If we can ever prove that there actually WAS a J1 that rolled off of Horseshoe curve and is still buried at the bottom of the hill, I'll grab my shovel and help you dig it up!

Les

Back on the subject -- wasn't CNJ Camelback 774 supposed to have been saved, only to be lost at the 11th hour (I'm not saying that the Atlantic preserved at the B&O museum isn't a wonderful thing to have, just that 774 seems much more 'iconic'... even today.


The thing I'm still bitter about is the last Shark B-unit, which was rebuilt with an Alco engine, I think some flavor of 251, and was subsequently converted into a strange semi-portable power unit and stored at one of the breakers in the Wilkes-Barre area, where I saw it in the early '70s. At one point, a railfan asked if it would be for sale and was actually given a price. A pretty cheap price.

Apparently when the breaker's grounds were cleared up, and the price of scrap went high, off she went. Not more than a few months, as it turns out, before I remembered what I had seen all those years ago and started making inquiries about buying it "on spec" against the day Mr. Larkin lets the cabs out... too late.


RME

Woudn't that RS-2 that was cut up in Michigan last year also fit in this thread? I heard they offered it for sale for over a year with no takers, so to the scrap man it went.

A story about a narrow-gauge passenger car that almost made it.

The Denver, South Park & Pacific line in Colorado that had an officer's car that was number 050. After UP gained control of the line it was caught up in a general renumbering in 1886 and became 025. It then about 1889 becomes UP officer car 06, apparently with both narrow and standard gauge trucks.

In 1912 the car is sold to the 3'-gauge Nevada-California-Oregon car "Fairport." It the late 'teens it survives a kitchen fire. After the Southern Pacific purchased the N-C-O the car is transferred to the SP's Mina (Nevada) to Keeler (California) line as officer car #20. When that line was cut back to operate only in California the car was assigned to MW service and numbered MW5.

After WWII the is moved intact (including trucks) to Bayshore (near South San Francisco) to serve as accommodations near the engine service facility. The railfan Gerald ("Jerry") Best -- friend of Ward Kimball and long-time R&LHS member -- makes an inquiry about purchasing the car.

The car then burns.

[quote="Alexander D. Mitchell IV
The more I see hysterical fans on Facebook and other forums insist on trying to save every last thing and call it "criminal" for a railroad to salvage its own assets as it chooses, the more I'm tempted to start lighting campfires with old RR timetables just to annoy them.[/quote]


and this is the kind of comments that keep me off this site.
i relize, and didn't mean that the president of the PRR should have been hauled off to prision.and I'm glad for what was saved.but couldn;t just a few more have been.
I look at pictures of acres of WWll aircraft being scraped and get just as upset. Did they all need saved, no. but alot of historic ones were. and ships like the USS Enterprise, the most decorated ship in our navy was cut up. but we need to change our ways, and start preserving our history, instead of crying over things years after they are gone forever.

I think I recall a thread past about some old S motors....or some prototype made popular in the tinplate model train era - which were donated to some group and were left rusting into nothing in New York or New Jersey somewhere. So, donation to a museum or historic group doesn't actually mean going into preservation. Maybe somebody will remember enough of the particulars to do a valid search.

dave

[quote Dave Lewandoski] and this is the kind of comments that keep me off this site. [/quote]

Dave, just consider the source, whos opinions are expected and widely known.

Plenty of good people and good info on here.

On the subject of things preserved and lost anyway--A DM&IR "Yellowstone" at Two Harbors that was preserved but neglected and scrapped (and replaced with another 2-8-8-4 that was still in the roundhouse--darn, still wish we had three of those monsters), and a Lehigh Valley inspection engine named "Dorothy," which was preserved by a retired official and actually ran on his property on a standard gauge loop (how nice to have a bit of money for something like that!)--but was scrapped after his death by his widow, perhaps as part of the WW II scrap effort.

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychao ... orothy.jpg

It's also saddening to go back to the post steam era--say, 1961-1963--and find how many steam locomotives were still around in dead lines. This would be well into an era when it would be realized that these retired machines would be worthy of preservation, but those dead lines would be cleaned out by the scrappers anyway.