Had a couple of photos sent to me this week of a couple of unusual looking 4 bay covered hopper cars. Both cars are painted box car red and, except for some minor details, look like they could be sister cars. However, one is painted as ACL #9600 and the other as Seaboard #58675. I was able to find a reference on the internet stating that the Seaboard had a series of 300 covered hoppers built in 1950 numbered 58675-58974. Whenever I see a car lettered for the first car number in a series, it immediately raises my suspicions that perhaps this isn't the first car in the series, but is just so numbered to represent that car because the car number cannot be definitely identified. In THIS case however, seeing two identical cars representing two different railroads makes me wonder if these are even actually ACL and Seaboard Air Line cars. I checked the Florida Railroad Museum website, but nothing is listed. Anybody know for sure the story on these two preserved cars?

Thanks.

Les

Les

here are the photographs ... to offer some assistance



Dean Levin

From what I've been able to find, they are a common design shared by the SAL and ACL for dry phosphate rock service. They would be SAL class P-9, and appear to have been built in the early 1950's.

However, I will defer to dedicated ACL/SAL officianados to fully comment.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Les, the cars are very similar to both Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line classes of covered hoppers in phosphate service, but I was unable to find any photos in my collection that precisely match these 2 particular cars in all aspects. They do, however, more closely resemble ACL cars.

From the diagram book, ACL had 4 classes of similar dry rock phosphate cars built between 1948 and 1962:
Class U-7, Oct.-Nov. 1948, AC&F Lot 3326; Nos. 9500-9599
Class U-8, 1951, AC&F Lot 01-3510; Nos. 9600-9999
Class U-10, 1957, Greenville Steel Car Co. Lot 0.0.689; Nos. 10000-10199
Class U-12, 1962, AC&F at Huntington, WV, Lot 11-5893; Nos. 10200-10499

I don't have class designations for the SAL cars of similar design, but do have a couple of photos and car series from a book:
1951, Pullman-Standard, Nos. 58675-59274
1956, Pullman-Standard, Nos. 59275-59474

Without doing further research I don't know if Seaboard Coast Line might have bought any newer cars of this design after the 1967 ACL/SAL merger.

Obviously, the museum selected to represent the class ACL Class U-8 car (No. 9600) and the class SAL Class P-8(?) car (No. 58675).

One published source states that cars from ACL Class U-12 were converted by Seaboard Coast Line to "flip-tops", presumably with trough hatches for rotary dumping, which is indicated on both cars in Dean's photos. These trough hatches replaced 4 individual hatches on each side of the center running board. So technically, having either car painted as ACL is incorrect for their current configuration. I found a photo of some of these cars in billboard SCL lettering but still having the 4 individual hatches on each side. Surely somewhere there are photos of these cars in-service after the "flip-top" conversions.

The large towing eyes shown on the "ACL" car are absent in the photos of ACL Class U-7, U-8 and U-12 cars I located. These may have been added by SCL to replace tow points at the locations seen on the "SAL" car.

The reinforced pads at the body corners (near the towing eyes on the "ACL" car) were apparently added during the SCL conversion. None of the ACL photos show that feature.

Both groups of SAL cars have some distinctive visual differences compared to the cars in Dean's photos. The primary difference is in the angled side sills at both ends on the AC&F/GSC cars built for ACL vs. straight side sills on the P-S cars built for SAL.

Based on all this and with Dean's photos to look at, I would have to believe that both cars are in fact ACL heritage cars, probably both from the U-12 class. Whether "ACL 9600" is accurate is at best questionable, and "SAL 58675" is most certainly an impostor. It is possible they could be newer, built under SCL but someone else will have to provide that info. For pure accuracy, the museum would have done better to have done both as SCL, but I can certainly appreciate the desire to represent the 2 biggest players in Florida railroading (ducking for cover from ballast thrown by FEC fans). But as they say, they're their cars and they can paint them however they want. I'm just happy to see some more freight cars that were so typical of the Bone Valley traffic not just on display, but being cared for!

It never fails...although the 2 photos of SAL cars I initially found appear to not have sloping side sills at the ends, I have found 2 other photos that do:

SAL No. 58102, Class P-9, July 1936, Pullman-Standard (builder's photo)
SAL No. 59584, Class ?, April 1962, AC&F (in-service)
From Bill Griffin's :"Seaboard Air Line Railway - The Route of Courteous Service", TLC Publishing, Inc, 1999

The 2 cars with straight side sills were:
SAL No. 59026, Class ?, 1951, Pullman-Standard
SAL No. 59386, Class ?, 1956, Pullman-Standard
From Paul Faulk's "Seaboard Air Line Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment", Morning Sun Books, 1998.

It seems that the 1962 AC&F cars would have been good candidates, in addition to the ACL Class U-12 cars, for conversion to rotary dump use, and not so much the 1936 P-S SAL cars. In any case, it looks like a lot more research would have to be done to try and identify each of those cars as accurately as possible. I think I'll stick with both being ACL heritage...just 'cuz...

Stephen

thanks for the interesting study information on these unique cars

here is another car in the consist


Dean Levin

I wasn't active in the museum when these cars were acquired but from what I've been told, all of these cars were at the Mosaic Phosphate Company and were donated to the museum a few years ago. They were sent to Mulberry Railcar where they were painted before delivery to the museum. CSX donated the movement and Mulberry Railcar donated their paint jobs. Supposedly, the low side phosphate cars were formerly ACL and SAL. However, Mulberry Railcar got them mixed up and painted the ACL car as SAL and the SAL car as ACL. The other car with the three logos on it was to represent the three companies involved in the donation.

Also note the Tropicana reefer that is barely seen to the right in the final photo which was donated by Tropicana. And, in the distance at the head of the string is SLSF 0-6-0 3749 which was donated to the museum earlier this year. At the other end of the cut of cars is the museum's ex-Detroit Union Terminal NW5, on static display since it has no traction motors and a broken crank shaft.

-Jim Herron

Dean, thanks for posting photos of all 3 cars. And thanks to Stephen Syfrett and Jim Herron for their comments. I wonder if anyone at the Florida Railroad Museum recorded the road numbers of the cars when they were donated by the Mosaic Phosphate Company? Or if any photos of them were taken at that time?

Les

hey Les .. no problem with the photographs... passed through there last week... Never knew the history of the NW 5... thats pretty interesting.... perhaps Jim can relay the story of how this engine found its way to Florida and the museum.... Interesting diesel to see.....Would be interesting to know how it made it down to Florida....


Dean Levin

The NW 5 was sold to Mississippi Export RR from the Fort Street Union Depot in Detroit many years ago (I don't have the sates for any of this description). It was number 61 at Miss Export RR and was later sold to Gardinier Phosphate Company at East Tampa, FL. Gardinier was bought out by La Farge Corporation and the engine is in the La Farge paint scheme currently but it was actually donated to the museum by Gardinier just before the La Farge take over.
The current paint job was done by museum volunteers. The Gardinier paint scheme was solid yellow.

-Jim Herron

Glenn Miley here with the Florida Railroad Museum
For a moment believe the lettering on the SAL and ACL cars are flipped, so now the car with the cast end sill is letter SAL. Mulberry Railcar got the cars mixed up after sandblasting. Now with that in mine the cars are in fact lettered correctly. SAL ordered P-9's from Pullman in 1936 and in 1951, Pullman did not change the design at all. The number is the first of the 1951 order as we could not find the original number for that car. The very next order SAL made, the hoppers came in the white scheme. Now ACL 9600 again the original number could not be found so the first in the series was chosen. Not all cars are listed in any one book, many different books make up the roster. The cars did get converted in the late 60's by SCL to rotor dump. However we wanted to show their as built paint. The white hopper was ACL, but wanted to show thanks to all who helped get the cars.

Glenn -

Thanks very much for the info on these 3 covered hoppers.

I have a question about a couple of ex-B&O boxcars that ended up there at FRM but I'll put them on a new thread rather than "hijack" this one.

Les