I am having a hard time swallowing that there are people posting on RYPN who cannot use a name or e-mail address because they are "in the business."

Most of the bitter language has come from the nameless. The folks who are catching heck not only have used their real identity, but they stand up behind what they post.

It really is hard to accept people who use a hidden ID while attacking people who are sincere enough to admit who they are.

If your thoughts are honest and true, attaching a name can only elevate you in the eyes of your peers.

I have had the time and inclination to post more than usual in the past week, but I am starting a personal pledge of not responding to anyone without at least a name or an e-mail.

Rob



Ahead of the Torch
trains@robertjohndavis.com

> I am having a hard time swallowing that
> there are people posting on RYPN who cannot
> use a name or e-mail address because they
> are "in the business."

> Most of the bitter language has come from
> the nameless. The folks who are catching
> heck not only have used their real identity,
> but they stand up behind what they post.

Well, we've held off on it for 4 years, but after this week's multi-topic flame fests, I for one am tired of trying to moderate the board in its current format.

As it happens Hume Kading and I have a chance to meet this week and I will raise the issue with him. We will certainly post a request for comment before initiating any changes, but at the moment I am leaning towards going to a Register to Post format requiring registration with an English-language name and valid email address.

Our ambition for this board is that it serve as a forum for networking, exchange of news and best practices, and POLITE, REASONABLE discussion of issues of interest to the railroad preservation community. It was never intended--and is still not intended--to be a forum for attacking other institutions or posters within the community, or engaging in debating pyrotechnics and demonstrations of high-school forensic skill or lack thereof.

In my opinion the past week has not seen the board living up to that mandate. So, changes may be in order to recreate the environment we want to maintain. Stay tuned.

> It really is hard to accept people who use a
> hidden ID while attacking people who are
> sincere enough to admit who they are.

> If your thoughts are honest and true,
> attaching a name can only elevate you in the
> eyes of your peers.

> I have had the time and inclination to post
> more than usual in the past week, but I am
> starting a personal pledge of not responding
> to anyone without at least a name or an
> e-mail.

> Rob

> I am having a hard time swallowing that
> there are people posting on RYPN who cannot
> use a name or e-mail address because they
> are "in the business."

I will step up and make a couple remarks:

I am an occasional poster on this board under my true name and e-mail. I shifted to a pseudonym because others involved (directly or indirectly) with the PRR 1361 project on which I had been commenting had advised me that repercussions were being threatened against the various individuals suspected (rightly or wrongly) of "leaking" information about the 1361 and/or 3713 projects. If these repercussions had occurred (which I think may have already in any case), they might have set back the projects another ten years. Right now, people whom I know to be competent in their particular crafts, and who take their orders pretty much without questioning the methods used, are either walking off their volunteer jobs because of the antagonisms created, or are being threatened with dismissal for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time or saying "Now, wait a minute..." to the wrong person.

When I posted to the board under a pseudonym, I immediately reported myself directly to Yarger, Ledbetter, and Kading, and offered to let them decide whether I warranted deletion. In my opinion, the questions I raised needed to be raised without threat of suspension or retribution to certain people on the projects, and the pseudonym was the only option available.

Anyone wishing to pursue my views and opinions further is welcome to e-mail my girlfriend at the above e-mail, and I'll consider after she forwards your comments to me. Again, please note, this is NOT my usual way of acting on this board, but based on the information I am being told, I believe the "disguise" is in the best interests of both the 1361 and 3713.

celticwren@yahoo.com

Rob points out an important concept we all should embrace- whether this board deteriorates into just one more Internet rant or continues to serve as an example of collaborative interchange depends soley on us- the users. Its an individual choice as to whether we want to respond to any post on this board or move on or log off.
We all have the responsibility to keep this thing centered on the reasons why we keep coming back to RYPN. The way the regulars act and react on an ongoing basis will be far more powerful than any moderator action, although I support Eriks thoughts of registering to post.



staybolt@bellsouth.net

Folks,

I have never hidden behind a fake name. I will tell someone face to face anything I say here. I post here on an off. I will be the first to say I have posted some dumb stuff, even recently.

The password feature is a good one to let someone remove something if they feel they were not of sound mind when making the post.

I see the point of Ms. Snow and would like to keep posts from people like her on the board. I for one have never been in a job where I was not allowed to speak freely but understand that many people are faced with this problem.

Tom Gears

tom@forgottendelaware.com

Simply consider the source on all posts. If it is anonymous, ignore it. You have no way of knowing if the information is correct or not.Don't reply to anonymous posts.

fkrock@pacbell.net

> Having been spanked for not giving a name this week, I will make the following points:

Let's assume that I have a professional background in systems testing-spending several years basically finding ways that a computer program and/or the administrative procedures that surround it are purported to be effective aren't. In a sense, doing professionally to COBOL programs what hackers do on the web-but before a breach is employed with malicious intent.

With that backgound, I would understand concepts like "validity" and "authentification" very well.

In that case- the problem with "valid" as used by Erik and I understand his concerns-is that it isn't possible to require a valid e-mail, without imposing draconian measures on the board.

Let me demonstrate. Assume you ban the following:

"Phoebe Snow"

because you know it is a ficticious name. Phoebe might just go out and register "Arthur Martin"-of course that'll pass the sniff test. Phoebe can even get an email that says "Arthur Martin"

Now making the change has a further downside. "Arthur Martin" can get on the board to state that "they are clubbing baby seals at the Podunk Central" and people will be more apt to rely on this type of stuff because we've removed obvious fictions and imposed controls widely assumed to be effective.

My point is systems controls are a lot like what a friend told me about engineering (after I flunked out) its not about solutions, its about trade-offs.

Right now, there's vigorous debate- those of us who are 'afeard" can advertise our cowardise and you can reduce the value of our assertions of fact and opinions as you see fit.

Of couse I've posted anonymously...



Superheater@beer.com

You said it, I have dozens of email ads, this because I don't reveal my identity anywhere on the internet. Once I posted one of my email ads here, the only place I ever used it, well surprise, I still get an average of 15 spam mails a day even though this was over a year ago. Harvester programs have hit this site before and will again. I don't post rumors here, or slander others or their efforts, mostly I ask questions. Probably no one on this board would know me by name, but thats not the case in other places I post so I never reveal my full name to anyone. Why? Because when posting about another hobby, some guy who claimed to know me slandered my name and told everyone not to listen to me. I still have no idea who or what their problem was. With all the politics in rail preservation many people here suffer by freely commenting, they lose support, are taken off projects, or may be victims of snide remarks at the next meeting of their organization. So change the board all you like, I'll never post my full name. And frankly I don't see any problem with that.

> With that backgound, I would understand
> concepts like "validity" and
> "authentification" very well.

> In that case- the problem with
> "valid" as used by Erik and I
> understand his concerns-is that it isn't
> possible to require a valid e-mail, without
> imposing draconian measures on the board.

> Let me demonstrate. Assume you ban the
> following:

> "Phoebe Snow"

> because you know it is a ficticious name.
> Phoebe might just go out and register
> "Arthur Martin"-of course that'll
> pass the sniff test. Phoebe can even get an
> email that says "Arthur Martin"

> Now making the change has a further
> downside. "Arthur Martin" can get
> on the board to state that "they are
> clubbing baby seals at the Podunk
> Central" and people will be more apt to
> rely on this type of stuff because we've
> removed obvious fictions and imposed
> controls widely assumed to be effective.

> My point is systems controls are a lot like
> what a friend told me about engineering
> (after I flunked out) its not about
> solutions, its about trade-offs.

> Right now, there's vigorous debate- those of
> us who are 'afeard" can advertise our
> cowardise and you can reduce the value of
> our assertions of fact and opinions as you
> see fit.

> Of couse I've posted anonymously...

I am listed as ge13031 on about 28 different boards and have never had a problem. My real name, lamontdc is quite obvious in my quite real e-mail address. ge13031 is my locomotive, ge13031@yahoo.com is a good anonymous address. I make it a practice not to flame or slander despite my somewhat different opinions. What I post here and on other boards is what I would say to your face if it was a personal situation. My opinions are based on 40 years of a rather lackluster side career in railway preservation and is definitely biased by a metallurgical degree, 35 years in a steel plant and part timing in the locomotive repair and leasing business.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

By valid all I meant is "we can email to it and it dosn't bounce back". It's not authentication in any sense; it would be a way for the mdoerators to concact the poster backchannel and assume the message would be read.

Nothing about this would prevent someone from registering with an assumed name and a hotmail account if they want to take the trouble; if implemented, it's intended more as a check of sincere interest and a measure to assure a channel of communication rather than airtight security.

As for anonymity, I well understand why some folks want and even need it; it's just as moderators, it's an all or nothing proposition--if we extend it at all, as we have to date, we must necessarily extend it to those who use it unwisely as well as wisely--there's no middle ground.

Keep the thoughts coming folks, no decisions have been made yet.

eledbetter@rypn.org

I'm not sure if this is practical, but here's an idea. Have TWO "Interchanges". One could be for those seeking or putting forth REAL technical or historical info and another for those who have an ax to grind about a particular subject. This will save the technical types time from having to scan past the GARBAGE and the ax grinders can grind away in their own little world.

Some will argue that ax grinding is warranted. I'm not going to debate it, I'll only say I AM SICK of it. I'm just saying, they can have their separate board to do so.

One way or another, the mud slinging and bickering has to stop.

I thought that the real name requirement on this board was a real rule when it came to maligning somebody or something..... And that flamming got you bounced after one warning. Just enforce the basic rules and see what happens.

If somebody is rasing funds for a supposed restoration project and it is found out to be a scam, email the moderators and let them decide if it goes on the board. They should check it out and if it is true, then it's their call to report it.

But, also remember, simply coming out and slamming something or somebody leaves the other side to defend itself against a possible rumour or misunderstanding to which the innocent's character has been assasinated just by being accused.

I learned for myself a while ago after being involved in a museum and a locomotive restoration for a number of years is that NO steam locomotive resoration project or museum was worth destroying your life, or having a heart attack over. IT'S ONLY A PIECE OF IRON!!!! GET A GRIP, PEOPLE!!!! THERE ARE REAL ISSUES IN EVERYDAY LIFE THAT SHOULD PALE COMPARED TO WHAT IS FROTHED OVER HERE ABOUT!!!!!

First, IMO, the issues of re-use, consumption, and static conservation DO need to be addressed. Yes, preferably without heat and rancor, but even if this isn't possible, considering the passions involved, then it STILL needs hammered out before the hobby/movement/industry can move forward.
Second. we all need to face the simple fact that there are NO 100% RIGHT answers, and there NEVER WILL BE. Third, The history of any artifact does not stop at a certain point (unless the object is completely physically destroyed) even tomorrow will soon be just another point in its history. Some RR artifacts may even have a more important "historical" role in preservation than they ever did in common carrier service (like the AFT pieces for instance, or the switcher that was turned into "Thomas").

Now as to the question of "real names" and such. IMO it is the contents of the can that are important, not the label. If the contents are good, it shouldn't matter who's name is on the label... If the contents are trash, then ignore it. If I had to go through the trouble of posting a profile (and adding my name to a list that COULD be sold or "harvested") then I would be much less likely to participate. For those who prefer to having their pet theories and opinions stand unchallenged, I suppose this could well be a blessing.
Just my simple opinion -- That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee

> By valid all I meant is "we can email
> to it and it dosn't bounce back". It's
> not authentication in any sense; it would be
> a way for the mdoerators to concact the
> poster backchannel and assume the message
> would be read.

> Nothing about this would prevent someone
> from registering with an assumed name and a
> hotmail account if they want to take the
> trouble; if implemented, it's intended more
> as a check of sincere interest and a measure
> to assure a channel of communication rather
> than airtight security.

> As for anonymity, I well understand why some
> folks want and even need it; it's just as
> moderators, it's an all or nothing
> proposition--if we extend it at all, as we
> have to date, we must necessarily extend it
> to those who use it unwisely as well as
> wisely--there's no middle ground.

> Keep the thoughts coming folks, no decisions
> have been made yet.

Erik: Since you still seem to be taking votes, I say...LEAVE IT BE!

Les Beckman

midlandblb@cs.com

> I thought that the real name requirement on
> this board was a real rule when it came to
> maligning somebody or something..... And
> that flamming got you bounced after one
> warning. Just enforce the basic rules and
> see what happens.

All true, but the problem I confronted this week is trying to enforce these rules from a hotel room on the road while working for a client 10-11 hours a day. By the time I had time to check to the board some of our flame wars were 10 posts deep and the horse was already out of the barn.

Also, as a the person doing the enforcing I am tiring of making the judgement call. I never like lowering the delete hammer and we have done so very sparingly; as the moderator, just having to weigh the decision gets old. I'm seeking away to avoid having moderating this page become a second full time job.

eledbetter@rypn.org

"I'm seeking away to avoid having moderating this page become a second full time job."

The man has a point here. Out of the kindness of their hearts, and as far as I can tell, nothing else, the moderators of this board have provided us, the rail enthusiasts and preservationists, with a place to engauge in a larger dialogue than just our own particular shops. We need to keep things civil in order to make their lives easier, and as a thanks for what they do. And I'm guilty as charged here, I run on pure emotion sometimes.

On the other hand, there are apparently a number of questions that do need to be aired, and this seems a good sight to do it. I know of several museum staffers and curatorial types with real power to affect how collections are used who read this list, and suspect several others. I have to think that the debate on here makes a real difference, as I myself cannot help but be influenced by a good argument well presented. And if we keep it polite, they are more likely to respect our opinnions.

Perhaps that's the real crux of this particular thread. How do we as a community manage to stay polite with one another, even when we disagree. And there are no easy answers. The politicos have apparently never figured that one out as a body, as they keep defaming one another. And they've been at this a few thousand years or so. But I think that good manners, universaly applied, could help. Maybe what we need to do is write in to miss manners once in a while. Or we will have to pay someone, like the lady in commons (parliament, U.K. London England,) who tells all the old heads when to pipe down. And then we'll all have to pay to be on here in some sense other than our stellar opinions. (And mine at least would not merrit the cup of coffee without at least a buck, and more likely two, as I'd have to pay for time and emotional trauma.)

What can we do kind sirs to make your lives easier, and to keep ourselves human?

Sincerely,
David Ackerman
Who posts rather to often, but means well.


david_ackerman@yahoo.com