Did anyone get over to Lynchburg's Riverside Park this summer to inspect the C&O 2-8-4, #2760?

Can anyone update us on her status?

Apparently #2700 is up for grabs in a trade. Apparently this heavily vandalized locomotive was partially disassembled and has not found it's savior. Anyone need a steady weekend project?

glueck@maine.edu

It seems ironic that there are so many C&O K-4's left (12 me thinks), yet they haven't really made much of an impact in the excursion era.

What's the scoop?

Were they retired in bad shape?

We've seen 3 of 4 RDG T-1's run, multiple SP 4-6-2's, 2 of the 6 NKP S classes, and all 6 of the remaining CPR G-5's.

So what gives with the Kanawhas?

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

> Did anyone get over to Lynchburg's Riverside
> Park this summer to inspect the C&O
> 2-8-4, #2760?

> Can anyone update us on her status?

I last saw her this spring and I expect I'll see her again this fall. No change in her condition and no plans afoot to my knowledge.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Richmond's has the cab badly damaged, missing some external parts. In my opinion, could be restored.

Newport News's in similar shape, boxed in a park. Has been cosmetically restored twice, due to vandals. Looks fair to good now. Another that might be restorable.

Lynchburg's is a disgrace. Completley stripped. One of the saddest locomotives I've ever seen, but who knows what's under that rotting exterior?

St. Louis's is under shelter, intact, illuminated, and good looking, but unlikely to be a candidate for operation.

Still working on seeing the others.

glueck@maine.edu

Most of the C&O Kanawha's that I can think of were put in city parks after retirement, and after 20-30 years of being vandalized and weather damaged some made their way to museums. I wonder whether this in particular contributed to the poor average condition of these locomotives, which in turn would be why none operate. Most of the operating steam engines I can think of offhand never endured park sevice, but rather went straight to museums that took care of them until they could be restored. What effect does service as a monument in a city park have on the average steam engine?

Frank Hicks

fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

> Most of the operating steam engines I can
> think of offhand never endured park sevice,
> but rather went straight to museums that
> took care of them until they could be
> restored. What effect does service as a
> monument in a city park have on the average
> steam engine?

That's an easy one. It kept them from going to scrap, when the rest of their class did. Many are the stories of engines that were turned down for monument service in parks by the host city, to get scrapped instead.

No, most of them will never run; although some had served as parts doners for running engines. But a rusty, derelict Kanawha is better than NO engine at all.

Some park engines have gone through cycles of dereliction and cosmetic restoration. One example is the engine here in Port Arthur, Texas that was looking really bad until cleaned and repainted by Kansas City Southern and the City of Port Arthur just last year.

Consider also SP "Daylight" #4449; rescued from a park in Portland for the Freedom Train in 1976. While I think the days are long over that a steam engine can be pulled from a park and ran with a minimum of work; they are at least still with us today.

I don't think a derelict park engine does much to inspire today's generation. remind them of past days, and honor yesterday's workers; but when SP(T&NO) 2-8-2 #794 was recently moved from the park it occupied for decades, comestically restored and placed on display next to the Southern Pacific Depot in St. Paul Square, San Antonio; it once again serves the function of illustrating what a steam train in times past looks like.

There are not doubt other examples. But with hundreds of park engines on display across the country; all on display now for roughly 40 years; it is only logical that many would be in the shape they are in now.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a



Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

When NKP384 was pulled out of the park in Lorain it had suffered major boiler rust inside and out due to lagging holding water. The folks that put her "away" packed waste in the cylinders and valves and the loco rolled rather free. Cab and tender tank of course are patterns only. Almost all of the unboltables were salvaged. Probably about a million plus to have her rebuilt.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

Is an engine necessarily any worse off sitting in a city park than being part of an outdoor museum collection? Sure I've seen engines like the Lynchburg Kanawha that probably woulnd't recognize a paint brush if it saw one, but at the other end of the spectrum there are engines like the CB&Q Mike in Mendota, Illinois that would put a lot of museum engines to shame. That's one of the reasons why I started parkengines.railfan.net, to show in pictures what can be done with the engine in your local city park, or in all too many cases, what needs to be done.

Anyway, off the top of my head, here's a short and by no means complete list of some notable park display engines that lived to steam again, in addition to the 4449 that James already mentioned:

UP 3985

SP&S 700

PRR 1361

SOO 2719

SOO 1003

GTW 6325

EB&L 5 (the star of this past weekend's White Mountain steamup at Clark's Trading Post, long a display outside Loon Mountain ski resort)

NP 328 - I've seen photos of her up to her running boards in water when the St. Croix River flooded the waterfront park where she was displayed for many years.

NP 2156 - Not running yet but restoration is once again underway. Here's a good example of some the challenges of restoring a park engine. She was overhauled not too long before being retired by the NP, so she was in relatively good shape before sitting outside in a park for almost 30 years. At some point water got into one of the valve chests and froze, cracking out a chunk of the valve cylinder wall. The discovery of this crack was a major setback to the restoration project, which ended up being on hold for almost 20 years before resuming last year.



parkengines.railfan.net
rjenkins@railfan.net

Don't forget the Narrow Gauge:

D&RGW #486 - parked next to Royal Gorge for close to 40 years - now active on D&SNG after restoration.

D&RGW #315 - being restored in Durango

D&RGW #169 - being restored in Alamosa

SPNG #18 - being restored in Independance, CA

C&S #71 - Was restored and run for a couple years in Central City, CO in the late 80's- now back on display.

C&S/RGS #74 - Being restored in Boulder.

Narrow gauge fans have been busy - anyone else know of any other former/current park engines coming back together?

See ya - Mike

> Is an engine necessarily any worse off
> sitting in a city park than being part of an
> outdoor museum collection? Sure I've seen
> engines like the Lynchburg Kanawha that
> probably woulnd't recognize a paint brush if
> it saw one, but at the other end of the
> spectrum there are engines like the CB&Q
> Mike in Mendota, Illinois that would put a
> lot of museum engines to shame. That's one
> of the reasons why I started
> parkengines.railfan.net, to show in pictures
> what can be done with the engine in your
> local city park, or in all too many cases,
> what needs to be done.

> Anyway, off the top of my head, here's a
> short and by no means complete list of some
> notable park display engines that lived to
> steam again, in addition to the 4449 that
> James already mentioned:

> UP 3985

> SP&S 700

> PRR 1361

> SOO 2719

> SOO 1003

> GTW 6325

> EB&L 5 (the star of this past weekend's
> White Mountain steamup at Clark's Trading
> Post, long a display outside Loon Mountain
> ski resort)

> NP 328 - I've seen photos of her up to her
> running boards in water when the St. Croix
> River flooded the waterfront park where she
> was displayed for many years.

> NP 2156 - Not running yet but restoration is
> once again underway. Here's a good example
> of some the challenges of restoring a park
> engine. She was overhauled not too long
> before being retired by the NP, so she was
> in relatively good shape before sitting
> outside in a park for almost 30 years. At
> some point water got into one of the valve
> chests and froze, cracking out a chunk of
> the valve cylinder wall. The discovery of
> this crack was a major setback to the
> restoration project, which ended up being on
> hold for almost 20 years before resuming
> last year.


Yenko117@yahoo.com

> Is an engine necessarily any worse off
> sitting in a city park than being part of an
> outdoor museum collection? Sure I've seen
> engines like the Lynchburg Kanawha that
> probably woulnd't recognize a paint brush if
> it saw one, but at the other end of the
> spectrum there are engines like the CB&Q
> Mike in Mendota, Illinois that would put a
> lot of museum engines to shame. That's one
> of the reasons why I started
> parkengines.railfan.net, to show in pictures
> what can be done with the engine in your
> local city park, or in all too many cases,
> what needs to be done.

> Anyway, off the top of my head, here's a
> short and by no means complete list of some
> notable park display engines that lived to
> steam again, in addition to the 4449 that
> James already mentioned:

> UP 3985

> SP&S 700

> PRR 1361

> SOO 2719

> SOO 1003

> GTW 6325

> EB&L 5 (the star of this past weekend's
> White Mountain steamup at Clark's Trading
> Post, long a display outside Loon Mountain
> ski resort)

> NP 328 - I've seen photos of her up to her
> running boards in water when the St. Croix
> River flooded the waterfront park where she
> was displayed for many years.

> NP 2156 - Not running yet but restoration is
> once again underway. Here's a good example
> of some the challenges of restoring a park
> engine. She was overhauled not too long
> before being retired by the NP, so she was
> in relatively good shape before sitting
> outside in a park for almost 30 years. At
> some point water got into one of the valve
> chests and froze, cracking out a chunk of
> the valve cylinder wall. The discovery of
> this crack was a major setback to the
> restoration project, which ended up being on
> hold for almost 20 years before resuming
> last year.

Add NKP 2-8-2 587 to this list.

Also, for the record, the cosmetic restoration of Kanawha 2789 (the last one built and the only one surviving with a WELDED boiler) is continuing. Recently, the cab was trucked out to have its rusted metal replaced. And we still have a complete new set of flues stored waiting for a change in attitude by the Class 1's toward privately owned steam operations....and the expertise and money to do an actual restoration to service.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

midlandblb@cs.com

I would bet that the KRM's 2716 is in the best shape, as far as the remaining C&O 2-8-4s are concerned. Yes, it will need a good bit of work to get running again, but it is a lot closer to running than the others.

david.wilkins@bardstown.com

> Anyway, off the top of my head, here's a
> short and by no means complete list of some
> notable park display engines that lived to
> steam again, in addition to the 4449 that
> James already mentioned:

> UP 3985

> SP&S 700

> PRR 1361

> SOO 2719

> SOO 1003

> GTW 6325

> EB&L 5

> NP 328

> NP 2156

Just a reminder that the one that started it all (going from static to steamin', that is) UP 618, is still in service at the Heber Valley Railroad--together with GW75 she shared a full summer season of daily steam!

--'doc' lewis

The Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

"Is an engine necessarily any worse off sitting in a city park than being part of an outdoor museum collection?"

Not necessarily. As you've correctly observed, this all depends on the circumstances of the particular museum or park. Some park engines, such as the CB&Q Hudson in Galesburg, have become the kernals germinated into small local museums. Some have been well cared for. Some museums have done a woefully bad job about keeping stacks covered and bearings lubricated. It's told that 4449 was in the shape that she was because a retired railroad employee came and oiled around periodically. The MOT in St. Louis has done better than most because the stacks are all covered and the bearings are kept lubricated.

Displaying locomotives in parks has gotten a bad reputation becuase they have typically been more exposed to vandalism, which museums because of the greater degree of supervision and limited opperating hours are less susceptible to, and because local interest and volunteers have often dried up to some extent over the years. The other place parks tend to suffer is interpretation. Interpreting a single locomotive in a park in such a way as to make it interesting to a large number of people could actually be more challenging than interpreting a large collection, and one thing we need to do is keep people interested so that new volunteers take the place of those who wish or need to "retire."

This presents an interesting case for opperation of at least some locomotives. If we can gain access to main lines and bring opperting locomotives to railside communities, we can rekindle the interest in the locomotives that are there. I'm led to understand that 1501 in Rolla Missouri was cosmeticaly restored and placed under cover in part because of the inspiration offered by 1522. Interestingly, I also understand that 1501 provided some parts used in the restoration of 1522. Thus in restoration, both locomotives benefited one another.

Conversely, it also presents a good case for park locomotives. There's really no need to have multiple copies of the same class of locomotive in one place, though it is remarkably usefull to have multiple copies in preservation. The depth of preservation presents an invaluable resource for study and restoration. Big museums should idealy have breadth, which is to say lots of different stuff. Those cases where there is a lot of depth it chould then be spread out to a lot of different comunities in oreder to create a stronger network of rail preservationists and enthusisats.

In the end whether a locomotive is in a prak, a museum, or a parking lot, we the volunteers have to go out and take care of them if we want them to remain attractive parts of our communities for our lifetimes and beyond. No, a locomotive is not necessarily worse off in a park than a museum. It is all dependant upon circumstances and upon us. There's room for both.

Sincerely,
David Ackerman

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

I am aware of a trend of moving engines out of parks and into the better environment provided by museums. The Illinois railway museum has done this several times. Both the long Island Rail Road engines have germinated into museums. Although they are both taken apart.

Here in the Bay Area, we do not have any more park locos because the went to scrap or to the Pacific Locomotive Assoc, the Golden Gate Railroad Musem or the Santa Clara Valley RR Assoc. etc.

One park in Oakland had a steam engine, a baggage car, passenger car, business car. All are now at museums; needing a lot of work after being lived in by a bunch of street people, but much more likely to get the needed tlc.

And on the narrow gauge scene let's not forget that the Coorado railroad Museum traded locos with a park in Rhinelander, Wisconsin in order to get a Colorado engine back home.

Ted

ted_miles@nps.gov

> Is an engine necessarily any worse off
> sitting in a city park than being part of an
> outdoor museum collection? Sure I've seen
> engines like the Lynchburg Kanawha that
> probably woulnd't recognize a paint brush if
> it saw one, but at the other end of the
> spectrum there are engines like the CB&Q
> Mike in Mendota, Illinois that would put a
> lot of museum engines to shame. That's one
> of the reasons why I started
> parkengines.railfan.net, to show in pictures
> what can be done with the engine in your
> local city park, or in all too many cases,
> what needs to be done.

> Anyway, off the top of my head, here's a
> short and by no means complete list of some
> notable park display engines that lived to
> steam again, in addition to the 4449 that
> James already mentioned:

> UP 3985

> SP&S 700

> PRR 1361

> SOO 2719

> SOO 1003

> GTW 6325

> EB&L 5 (the star of this past weekend's
> White Mountain steamup at Clark's Trading
> Post, long a display outside Loon Mountain
> ski resort)

> NP 328 - I've seen photos of her up to her
> running boards in water when the St. Croix
> River flooded the waterfront park where she
> was displayed for many years.

> NP 2156 - Not running yet but restoration is
> once again underway. Here's a good example
> of some the challenges of restoring a park
> engine. She was overhauled not too long
> before being retired by the NP, so she was
> in relatively good shape before sitting
> outside in a park for almost 30 years. At
> some point water got into one of the valve
> chests and froze, cracking out a chunk of
> the valve cylinder wall. The discovery of
> this crack was a major setback to the
> restoration project, which ended up being on
> hold for almost 20 years before resuming
> last year.

Unless I missed it on the list of park engines that have been restored to operation, how about adding Ft. Wayne's NKP Berk #765 to the list???? It spent over a decade stuffed and mounted in Lawton Park prior to its restoration to service.

drotarinoh@webtv.net