Mike,

We are, i think, talking about hypotheticals here, so repatriating the Steamtown Big Boy to Cheyenne is no more or no less absurd than repatriating the Ferdinand Magellan to some location associated with any of a number of elected officials. The question here, as I see it, is whether or not any museum with any particular piece of railroad equipment (or document, or any tangible artifact, or whatever) is under any obligation to return that piece to either its place of origin or to some location where said piece of equipment (document, artifact, etc.) may have some historical connection.

Translated, if your museum were to ask Steamtown for the return of Steamtown's (bought or donated) Big Boy based on its past connection with Cheyenne, does Steamtown have any obligation to even give you the time of day? The answer would be No! Does that rule out mutually acceptable sales or trades? The answer again is No! And BTW, I think we all understand that the cost to move any piece of rolling stock is not inconsequential.

I guess what I am trying to say is that any particular historical association with any particular person, event, or location does not impose or imply an obligation to return any artifact based solely on historical connotation. Again, hypothetically speaking, just because the Steamtown Big Boy once had a connection with Cheyenne does not imply that Steamtown owes you anything. The same is true of the Ferdinand Magellan or any other historical, archaeological, mineralogical, or artistic artifact. Does the Louvre owe the Mona Lisa to Italy? Understand?

IMHO, of course

Mike Rowe
Boulder, CO

I do not think anyone here including the fellow that started this post has suggested that there should be any obligations to "repatriate" elements of their collection, but this kind of discussion is almost guaranteed to push a few buttons.

There are examples of museums being asked or compelled to relinquish pieces from their collections. Art that has been illegally obtained continues to cause controversies at museums around the world including the Getty Center in Los Angeles, and of course the ongoing calls from Greece to repatriate the "Elgin Marbles." Other cases are a part of the tragic aftermath of the Holocaust.

While the concept of private property is pretty much sacrosanct, it seems that we should have some obligations to the best interests of our collections that go beyond the common sentiment of "it's mine!" Nonprofits (and public museums) hold their collections in trust for the benefit of the public. While I understand that these things are assets that have (some) actual value, their ultimate value is in their ability to communicate history to the public.

Preservation Law suggests some areas where broader "public" interests might limit the normal rights of property ownership. This may be especially the case with stuff owned by public agencies in some areas. Los Angeles' Travel Town came up in moderator Randy's earlier post. I know there are people there that have worked hard to restore and take care of some of their collection, but when I see a rare wood caboose falling apart, I have to wonder if the City of Los Angeles shouldn't be compelled to arrest this decay. My (limited) understanding of state preservation law suggests they should.

Edited to add that I nominate Lynn M. for the office of Railway Preservation Dictator for Life.

I was being sarcastic/and humourous......its a British thing you know.

Mike Pannell

'Donate a beer a week and bring the 9000 and turbine 18 to Cheyenne' campaign

It will either work or i will be very very drunk

Again, interesting responses although the original thought seems to be getting lost in the fold.

First, I am not calling for a massive reorganization of rolling stock at North American museums. However, I am arguing it may educate the public more effectively at Hyde Park. I am keenly aware of size and expense we are dealing with to move artifacts such as this. But again, I'm not calling for a complete rewrite of the curriculum but rather a logical reevaluation of what goes where best. I openly admit the discussion is theoretical in nature but isn't this true of the initial stages of any plan?

If it's true the average volunteer does not see themselves as keepers of priceless historical artifacts then the governing board of trustees should be ashamed of themselves. And again, this is why as preservationists we are stuck in neutral. Education is our primary mission. I work with 125 adolescents each and every school year. Perhaps 1% have a genuine interest in our field and perhaps 25% have actually rode on a train. A substantially larger population is going to be exposed and perhaps even gain a better understanding of the importance of railroads if the Magellan was sitting undercover at Hyde Park, interpreted by a professional staff. A couple of bronze statues is going to do absolutely nothing to engage and educate the patron.

The fact is, we are either running clubs or museums. These types of discussions happen regularly at high level museums of all sorts and we should not be intimidated or aggravated. Rather, we should see these as a conduit through which a more successful North American railway preservation movement can be achieved.

Since you keep pointing to the real museum world, let me try to couch what you are saying in those terms. What you propose is like the staff at the Smithsonian telling the staff at the British Museum that the Elgin Marbles should go back to Greece. Or more appropriately, some guy on an antiquities forum stating that he thinks the British Museum should send the Elgin Marbles back to Greece.

In railway preservation terms, you are no different than some foamer showing up at NMAH in Washington and demanding that the Smithsonian's curatorial staff return 1401 to her "rightful" home at TVRM or Spencer.

Last time I checked, neither you, nor anyone else on this forum is at the "high levels" of GCRM or the FDR Library and Museum in Hyde Park. So, we are "aggravated" because you are showing up, out of nowhere, telling two museums how you know better to manage your collection.

While such discussions on highest and best use, and collections management are recommended best practices for every railroad museum, I tend to confine my remarks to museums I am involved with, lest I look like that guy at the Smithsonian. People are not intimidated by what you say, they realize the reality of the situation, that you aren't a stakeholder at either museum. Other than being "some guy" on the internet, your discussion is about as useful as me declaring that I think that B&LE 643 should go to Steamtown, that the Baltimore Brill Semi-Convertable should go to BTM, that the Washington PCC at Roanoke should go to NCTM, etc.

There is always far more to each story, and the arm chair fans often know little of true situations. A phone call or two, or a polite letter can achieve much more than talking amongst yourselves about the Ferdinand Magellan and other somewhat related subjects. Sadly, we at the IRM Pullman Library know more of the story, but are ignorant of the present situation. Of the little that I know, there was an opportunity to make the car into a real showpiece but it was lost to an unfortunate choice of restoration that could have lost the car at the museum from quite devious maneuvering that at the time achieved very little. I would suggest that those who contributed to this thread total up their words for this thread, and send $0.25 for each word to the Gold Coast Railroad Museum (gcrm.org) in Miami who are active and friendly, specifically to maintain if not to restore the Ferdinand Magellan. For my part, I will again contact them about their documenting the history of the car for a display next to it. We have information on the original car (it was part of the Explorer series) and on its bullet proofing for the president. There is also information at the Newberry Library in Chicago. Instead of wandering off the subject, why don't you start a new thread with your particular interest. Let's do something about our country's history, be positive, don't try to reinvent and day dream.
Sincerely (and I mean it), Ted Anderson
P. S. As just one example of many, at Robert Todd Lincoln's (he was one time president of the Pullman Company) summer home in Manchester VT, the support organization there obtained 25 drawings that helped in the restoration of the Sunbeam. This may have not been mentioned previously here. Though the Pullman Library is self supporting within the museum from supplying copies of rail car documents, photos and drawings, we are very much part of the educating on our country's history through our volunteer efforts to keep it functioning. - Ted A.

This sentence brings up another point of this discussion; it has been aired before and will probably be again - museum vs club (in museum's clothing).

Granted, many fine organizations (and individuals) started out with a "wouldn't it be nice" thought, and without them we would have a less varied landscape.

The question of maturation and realization of goals come into this discussion as well. This topic is getting more broad with each new entry.

The ultimate question is - does this fall on deaf ears, to the enlightened, to the unrepentant (or repentant depending on your viewpoint) or becomes a nucleus for broadening ones viewpoint and goals for each of our respective organizations.

As an aside - the benevolent dictator is very appealing - only if you are within area of largesse of same. Kim Il Sung anyone - obviously a benevolent dictator if you lived in North Korea.

Peace, love and Cherry Garcia y'all.

I'm surprised that no one else has suggested the coolest and least practical way to interpret Ferdinand Magellan... Use it with an appropriate steam locomotive and cars, and reproduce a whistle-stop tour of the country. You could have a historical reenacter play the part of Truman or one of the others that used the car. I bet more people would see it than at any museum.

Hey it's all hypothetical, right?

-Mark

That sort of thing did happen 28 years ago when the Reagan re-election campaign had it taken out of the museum for a whistle stop tour of Ohio and Michigan, where tens of thousands of people did get to see the car doing what it was built to do - transport the President of the United States, probably for the last time. The only time I've ever seen the car was when it was at Washington Union Station at the end of that trip, and then all I saw was just the obs end through the door of a waiting area. I have to admit that glimpse was impressive enough. Side note: NS keeps the predecessor Presidential Pullman, Marco Polo semi-permanently (connected to ground utilities that could be disconnected) parked at the bumper of Track 7 at Union Station, used for entertaining. That one I had an opportunity to see the inside of once when it sat out in the open alongside Metrorail up by the now gone turntable.

I don't see anything wrong with discussing what ifs... As others have said, sometimes discussions like that DO lead to constructive ends. At worst it's a waste of electrons and a few minutes of time. As always, you can click on the return to the Interchange if you don't like what is being said. However, launching into personal attacks of anyone with the temerity to even broach a subject you disagree with ever bringing up is just uncivil.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but I think it is interesting.

I didn't think FDR used the Magellan much before its conversion into the Presidential car (paid for by the AAR). I thought he used the Marco Polo, the Roald Amundsen and the another car. I don't think the car was ready for FDR's use until 1943 or so. I seem to remember that the car's first trip as the Presidential car was to Miami, where FDR flew to a conference in Casablanca.


As an aside, a member of the Explorer series sits, mouldering away in French Lick, IN at the Indiana Railway Museum. The car is in the fading paint of its last RR owner, SAL, where it was a business car named Jacksonville. Interior, while somewhat rough, appears to be largely original, configuration-wise.

Well said, Omar, well said.

Another car in the Explorer series that hasn't been mentioned is the ROBERT PEARY. According to our web site, http://www.psrm.org, the PEARY was used 34 times by FDR in 1934, 35 & 36. It certainly could use some refurbishing, like new paint and carpet, but is in fairly decent shape. We use it from time to time as a VIP car and it is available for charter on our line. See http://www.sdrm.org/events/rentals/private-cars/

Jim Baker, Pacific Southwest Railway Museum, Campo, CA

Mark -

"Steam locomotive and cars". For the record, Truman's train came through North Judson pulled by a pair of Pennsy E7 diesels, although steam probably powered a good portion of those campaign trips. I can't read the number on the E7 diesel so can't tell if it's the ONLY E7 preserved (those darn "tiny" EMD number boards!). Sure would be nice if there was a list of which engines pulled Truman's trains that year.

BTW, a nice idea, but hardly one we need in an election year. Maybe next year. Hey Ross, is the 614 available?

Les

My comments; I appreciate all the various approaches about the Ferdinand Magellan and other Explorer series (we have supplied drawings for some of them). I myself am an imaginative person and have learned something from each and every one of you. Keep it up! I should not have mentioned the issue that may be working against moving the F. M., but was involved in the passive sense, we did nothing to promote a move, even though highly unlikely (there are probably legal implications here, plus attempted manipulations of our material that went very high level). Best not to mention it further as it apparently went to naught. However, about moving material, keep in mind the reason for the move, the acceptance of material with resources and ambition to restore it, and high costs of moving heavy equipment. I see it all the time at IRM and elsewhere and am amazed what a major effort is behind every acquisition. A move of a baggage car to store freight car documents, after restoration, and over just one carrier cost the IRM Pullman Library (we self support even to paying utilities) a lot of money for the move, twice the original estimate because of the preparation that was required to secure the parts that were literally falling off. A flurry of fund raising over the original approved amount managed to squeek us through from receipts and donations. Don't be afraid to blue sky, but be responsible for seeing it happen! Apply the rules learned from the little publication by the mathematician G. Polya, "How To Solve It." As a former R&D engineer for 40 years it works for me and for fellow dreamers I hope it works for you: as one approach make two columns, "FOR" and "AGAINST" and brain storm each issue. Then don't be afraid to act and follow through. Your blue sky thoughts, like a few of mine, can yield results if you can grit and make it happen in a friendly, noncompetitive environment. Keep those ideas coming, they all add to the "for" and the "against"! As an example, as a kid I wanted to save a B&M Mogul (2-6-0), but realized the only storage place I could get would be on private property near my house and beside one street where the kids actually killed someone by hurling a rock through the window of a passing passenger train. Years later, I donated money to fix the brakes and get the sole remaining B&M Mogul engine from the former Edaville property to Danbury Railway Museum. Never give up on your dreams, however far fetched.
Ted Anderson
(personal, not for the library)

I have a dubious memory of seeing FM in the Steamtown shop in the late 1990s, but I'm not sure if my mind is playing tricks on me. Did Steamtown do the FEMA-funded restoration of the damage the car suffered in Andrew?

Just a pure factual question, mind you: was it there, or is my memory playing tricks?