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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
Posts: 2732
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
While I'm at it, everything you wanted to know about gravity operated sanders:

Image

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David M. Wilkins

"They love him, gentlemen, and they respect him, not only for himself, for his character, for his integrity and judgment and iron will, but they love him most of all for the enemies he has made."


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:29 pm 

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 8:01 am
Posts: 23
...
I Should've known it was named something as simple as that.

Thank you! And sorry for making you go through the trouble of linking the images and all that. I guess I'm so used to books being mentioned that are hard to find normally and almost impossible online that I didn't even bother checking this one. My bad.

Again though, thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:42 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 297
Uh, I think John has a copy of the electric railway dictionary upstairs. If your google is broke, you might walk upstairs and ask to borrow his. When he gets back from the trip.

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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:36 pm 

Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 8:01 am
Posts: 23
I wish I could say my Google is broke but unfortunately this time it was on my own brain (or lack there of lol).

I've flipped through a couple of pages on Google already in fact, but now that I remember (again, forgetting the obvious) that John has it in his office, it might be better to read the hard copy. At least that's what I would prefer.

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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1130
Location: MA
Well it still does not answer the question for where to obtain Bell Rope bushings.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:53 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:38 am
Posts: 54
Location: Parkton, MD
I believe at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum that we've taken originals to a foundry for use as a pattern for additional pieces needed for a restoration. We have also had our in-house machine shop turn new pieces out of brass stock; the machined parts are then rouged/buffed/polished until they look as good as the originals.

Dave Crow


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:12 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm
Posts: 650
WRM would probably machine a signal-cord bushing in-house. More complex items are sent out for copying by investment casting.

Our main machinist has even made brass shells for light sockets out of bar stock. We sold a lot of brass chips from that job to the metal merchant.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3011
robertmacdowell wrote:
This distinction is RATHER important to operator safety: lift a 32V headlight off its ground and you are the 32V ground path (who cares). Lift a 600V-wired, resistor fed, 32V headlight off its ground, and you are the 600V ground path (yer dead).


Am I the only one who finds it shocking (sorry) that they'd do it that way?

Here we have an object at pretty much ground level. Obviously it's designed to be lifted up, it even has a handle on it. But if you do it wrong, and it's the wrong type, you're dead!

Yes, I know, many electric railways also had third rails all over the place to fry the unwary. But at least they had the justification that there was no reasonable option.

Unless I'm overlooking something, this device could have been insulated and built with a two prong plug, could it not? But rather than spend a few bucks more, they decided to design it in a way that could kill an unwary of inattentive operator. Wow...


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:16 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 15
Quote:
This distinction is RATHER important to operator safety: lift a 32V headlight off its ground and you are the 32V ground path (who cares). Lift a 600V-wired, resistor fed, 32V headlight off its ground, and you are the 600V ground path (yer dead).


Sorry sir, you and the headlight are on the 32 volt side of the resistor


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:42 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:56 am
Posts: 497
Location: Northern California
I believe the hazards of a hang on single wire headlight are being way overstated here. Rules, instructions and training clearly instruct operators in the proper way to turn the headlight off and unplug it prior to lifting it off the car. If an operator does manage to pick up the light up when it is still on, there is lots of resistance between him and the trolley. It will probably not be the worst shock of his career. In the railway industry there are lots of ways to get killed if you do not follow the rules, a trolley headlight is one of the lesser concerns.

I spent over 20 years working for a modern third rail transit system where there are live third rail shoes and rail everywhere. You would think it would be a real killer. But I am not aware of any electrocutions, except for one tresspassing drunk. Several employees, patrons and tresspassers were killed by being struck by trains but the high voltage third rail is appearently much less of a hazard.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
DCLamont wrote:
Quote:
This distinction is RATHER important to operator safety: lift a 32V headlight off its ground and you are the 32V ground path (who cares). Lift a 600V-wired, resistor fed, 32V headlight off its ground, and you are the 600V ground path (yer dead).


Sorry sir, you and the headlight are on the 32 volt side of the resistor

I think you need to work on your Ohm's Law a little bit. There's no such thing as an "XX volt side" of a RESISTOR.* The voltage out a resistor changes, often dramatically, when you alter a circuit. That's why you have to plug it into Ohm's Law, E=IR, and check it out. I is current in amps. E is the voltage drop across the resistor, i.e. the voltage difference between its high and low side. Pull the headlight off the door, and it goes out. I=0. Sketch out the circuit, treat the headlamp as another resistor, and I think you'll find a shocking answer.

* If you want that, use a semiconductor voltage regulator such as an LM305.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:58 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 15
My Dear Mr. Macdowell;
Anyone with any knowledge (and I must insist training) will turn the headlight off and pull the plug out of the headlight plug before they touch the headlight. Once the headlight is unplugged you can give it a big wet kiss and nothing will happen. I will trade this practice (the kiss is not required) over any exercise with Ohms law any day of the week. This is a very standard practice used on hundreds of Interurban cars on multiple systems for fifty years and it is no big deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:57 pm 

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 15
My Dear Mr. McDowell,
I must apologize, I found a way to kill yourself lifting a headlight off a bracket on a trolley car. Meeting the following conditions; pole up main breaker on, headlight plugged in and switch on. wet yourself down thoroughly and make sure your bare right foot is on the anticlimber (ground) pick up the headlight with your bare left hand. If you can get your internal resistance down to 1000 ohms you can expect a 30 milliamp current to flow down your left arm thru your heart and down to ground thru your right leg the effects of which are listed in the diagram. In addition, since this is DC you will immediately (if not sooner) let go of the the headlight and fling yourself rather dramatically to the ground, breaking the circuit among other things. I don't mean to make light of a potential hazard that is rather easily avoided, turn off, unplug ....just as important as always expect a train!


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:47 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Mr. Lamont, I am not looking for a "war of the e-peens". My only goal is to correct a serious misconception about how resistors work. Perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree. Let me ask you this.

In your diagram, you see two points where the "red" resistor attaches to the black lines. Suppose you attached a voltmeter at those two points. The headlamp is on, and securely on the bracket. We agree the voltmeter would read zero, or darn close, eh?

OK, now imagine all is the same, but the headlight has lost electrical contact with the bracket. The voltmeter will read WHAT? ________


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 Post subject: Re: Trolley questions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:44 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:54 am
Posts: 1078
Location: Califoothills / Midwest Prairies / PNW
This answer is easy. If the circuit is momentarily open, the resulting potential is the same as that of the source circuit. whatever the line voltage is. You don't need to establish resistance through your body to get back to a lower voltage. The potential shock would be pretty bad. If you want to calculate the experience of current through your body, I suppose there is a way to do that. Current causes many of the issues experienced with electric shock -the more I look into the subject the yuckier it gets.

Safe operation of equipment is the first goal of any operating museum. I am sure they have rules and instructions for doing every step of the job. I was instructed about car headlights and understood the dangers, when I ran a car myself. It is not dangerous if you simply follow procedure, or ask if you don't know.
O. Anderson


Last edited by o anderson on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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