Think about this. The 4501 hasn't been the "original" 4501 since 1912. In October of 1911 when she was constructed, she had an acetylene headlight. In a 1912 photograph, she is seen with an electric headlight. Small change but nonetheless the originality is lost. Today, her Form 4 and associated alteration reports tell of many changes made to the boiler during her life. Her driving wheels are from the 4616. Numerous other parts are from other locomotives. And this is the state she was in 1964 when purchased by Paul Merriman. I argue that it is impossible for a museum to restore such a locomotive to its original condition.

I agree that steam locomotives were designed to be rebuilt time and time again. Railroads made ongoing improvements during their careers. Parts replacement is a part of keeping them alive. I also feel that often a safety / maintenance improvement is worth the cost of losing originality (i.e., 26-L brake or force fed lubrication or even roller bearings on lead trucks or trailing trucks) if it is something that will extend the operable life of the locomotive.

Should we expand the scope of this thread to discuss paint schemes? Perhaps the argument of black versus green on Southern excursion locomotives?

aw90h@cs.com

Mark, I think it is time for a new thread. Maybe we should call it "no correct answers."

I find the changes that happened over time to be as fascinating if not more so than perfect examples of builders standard intentions.

Take a look at SERM's "Old Maud" kit one of these days and compare with the 4-6-0 that one source believes it was as delivered. Look over the wide variety of examples of the boilermakers skill and technology over time. It is almost a 100 year history of development of locomotive repair and rebuilding practice.

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

I find that when this issue comes up the "exceptions to the rule" always get much press. Yes Strasburg, Durango, etc. all are fun places to go and do a good job, so this is not a question. But lets look at the more common situations. I don't know the story of most groups across the country, but I'm sure my examples are representative. I will give you three cases in point, organizations near my home in Indianapolis. I have donated funds to two of them in the past and still plan to do so. I am not a member nor am I affiliated with any of them at this time as I am consumed with other projects. I do support industrial and railroad preservation.

Case Study #1, the Knightstown, Carthage, and Shirley Railroad in Knightstown Indiana is a "classic" tourist railroad. It is owned by a man who theoretically likes trains. He is not after the almighty dollar or he would have done something else with his money. He now runs two GE 44 tonners and a number of passenger cars and cabooses. In one case he purchased a steel caboose (that was in very good original condition) and has since painted it orange to match his other cars. At some point he decided it needed more windows, so the sides were cut open with RV? style windows added. Other cars he has have had similar modifications without regard to the original piece. Running maintenance is otherwise minimal. He once owned an ALCO RS-1 that he scrapped instead of donating it or keeping it around. He has regular Wild West Days and other events and presumably makes him enough money to pop in a few ties in his 6 miles or so of track. While his goal is not preservation, he has kept a piece of track in place that would have been pulled up some time ago otherwise. He is not able to keep ahead of deterioration and he is getting fairly old now, so at some point it will all likely end. Will his trains be scrapped or perhaps sold? Will the now landlocked line be eventually torn up? Only the future will tell, but the long term doesn't look good. He owns "his train" so we really can't fault him for not providing a service to the public trust, however, just as when an owner of a Victorian house covers it up in aluminum siding we in the preservation ranks suggest that the person has poor judgement and poor taste. So for every Strasburg you've got many more of these out there.

Let's go one step further, the Indiana Transportation Museum in Noblesville is a non-profit public trustee. In the last fifteen years or so they have become more and more operations oriented. This has changed the focus of the museum greatly as having "running & compliant" equipment is now the first priority. The State Fair train is the cash cow and they are lucky to have it, so consequently operations become more important. However, the museum does not own the land on which it's displays sit, it stores equipment, nor the track on which it operates. This former NKP track (to the State Fair grounds and beyond) has even been purchased by local government to be turned into a light rail commuter line in the future, how many Fair Trains do they have left? The museum has scrapped many pieces of "somewhat" historic equipment in the last five years due to storage related problems as they were evicted from various sidings Decisions were made so slowly that scrapping was the only possibility. Strangely enough, ITM continues to gather more items. In some respects, all of the museum's equipment is threatened, as a stable home does not exist. The group seems to make purchase and scrapping decisions on a random and rapid basis. A rash decision might again have to made again when storage issues arise. The question is whether preservation is this organization's goal? Are they living up to their non-profit charter? So even with the word Museum in their name they are in some ways more of a "club".

I hesitate to bring up my third example, the White Water Valley Railway because it seems to be in a transition of sorts. This organization is a non-profit organization like ITM but has never called itself a museum, though they are taking the benefits offered to historic preservation entities. In the recent past they operated as though it were a tourist railroad. The even had a diamond stack steam engine (though it had been built that way originally). In many ways it was a "steam club" where the revenue money went first to their steamer. Presumably the leftovers went to the track, nearly 20 miles of it. I doubt the concept of preservation was ever a consideration here. This gang struggled to survive, so that seemed to be the prime concern. When the steam engine went down at the end of the 1980's I thought that this group would soon disappear. Oddly enough, the lack of a steam engine seems to have greatly improved the place in many ways. A conincidence or reallocation of funds I am not sure. This group received some grants for track and bridge rehabilitation recently that have all but erased the poor track conditions that existed here just a few years ago. Rumor has it that they've even tried to find a better home for one of their other steamers. The ride was smooth on a trip this fall and I noted a few properly restored pieces of equipment. Is preservation their goal? I don't think it was in the 1970's and 80's but maybe it is now. Did they just have enough time to evolve and get them to this point? Will they continue to improve?

Key pieces to this argument then are public perceptions and organizational deeds. Can a private owner be a preservationist? by all means yes. Most of the historic buildings in this country are privately owned and many have sympathetic owners. Can a tourist railroad be preservation oriented? yes. Are all tourist railroad interested in preservation? No. Do tourist railroads sometimes destroy historic artifacts? yes (and they are entitled to do so to some degree if they still meet FRA requirements). Should non-profits who avoid taxes as a public trust be held to higher standards than a "tourist railroad"? In my opinion yes, as they accept money and effort from many of us in the public to fullfill their missions. When they don't at least consider issues that might jeopardize the organization's mission, a problem exists. This doesn't mean that the group should be shut down of course, but the group has a duty to focus on these shortcomings and work towards improving them given the available resources.

Am I way off base?

jkissinger@hotmail.com

Shouldn't come as any surprise that I find your comments accurate and fair minded. Wish I had that RS1.

I would be very pleased to see ARM, TRAIN, and whatever accreditation agency vets museums out there add a rule to their cirteria: "Any endangered piece in the collection, whether it be by neglect, lack of resources, loss of storage, or any other reason, will be offered free of charge to any reputable and responsible museum in a timely fashion before scrapping is the sole remaining option."

Dave

lathro19@idt.net

James,
I second your comments. My experiences and opinions parallel yours. As an aside, I am afraid that the ITM example (a lost emphasis on restoration while persuing an operating cash cow) may be inadvertently copied by folks who see the a little blue plastic chooch as the savior to their financial mis-management and lack of ability to raise sufficient endowment and grant monies. Particularly if it zaps the resources and energy of the preservationists.

> Am I way off base?
Not at all. I too would agree with what you say - and you seem to be well informed about what's going on in your area. I would like to hear what someone from ITM has to say in their own defense, however.

> The museum has
> scrapped many pieces of "somewhat"
> historic equipment in the last five years
> due to storage related problems as they were
> evicted from various sidings Decisions were
> made so slowly that scrapping was the only
> possibility. Strangely enough, ITM continues
> to gather more items.
This sounds sort of frightening. Could you be more specific on what equipment they have scrapped or are about to scrap? After all, they can hardly be unaware that there's at least one large museum nearby that's ALWAYS in the market for just about anything, it seems....

I am specifically aware of a very early hopper car with K-brakes and early cut levers that had been in inside storage at ALCOA in Lafayette, very good original car, a PRR X-29 (?) boxcar complete with roofwalk and verticle handbrake wheel. At least one South Shore car has been cut up as well, though these are fairly plentiful. Other cars were of similar types but I was not privy to all of the ones cut down, of course most of the ITM members were not either.

As for what is at risk now I would guess that the fleet of wood WABASH outside braced automobile box cars are next along with the other early hopper car as they are on a siding within the city of Noblesville. The museum has been pressured before about this area of storage. These wood cars are actually still in fairly good shape as they were also kept inside the ALCOA plant in Lafayette until brought to ITM several years ago. If I recall correctly they have six or seven of them, all nearly identical. A very rough heavyweight pullman and lounge car may also be at risk. Both were converted to MOW service and are open to the elements. The lounge might be worth the effort for the right (read wealthy fanatic) person or organization. Finding the right person there to agree to a sale will likely be difficult, but if you were to address the letter to be read at a Director's meeting it might go somewhere. The wood boxcars really would be a good pick for someone trying to find a wood car in decent shape.



jkissinger@hotmail.com

Why not offer the cars for free to any preservation group that is non-profit and has the funding to save them as Steamtown is doing? Wouldn't that be more noble than trying to sell them or scrapping them? Isn't that what preservation is about?

just a thought,

Stuart

Frisco 1506
gnufe@apex.net

Stuart

You're preaching to the choir a bit, but pride, egos, sentiment, and other odd personality traits seem to get in the way far more than they should in this world. Preservation groups (of all types) are unfortumately not immune. Why they don't offer them is simply they don't think they have to, until storage or other pressures force a change. Often many groups find new "value" in an item when an outside group expresses an interest.


jkissinger@hotmail.com

James -

I debated about re-opening this thread after more than 11 years, but my questions pertain to the CK&S and I don't know if it appeared anywhere else on RyPN. So here goes.

The operation is still ongoing in 2012 and from some fairly recent video's on the internet seems to be doing allright. They still have the two forementioned 44-tonners and some other equipment. There is an ex-Santa Fe caboose nicely painted orange and maroon, but I don't know if it is the one with the RV windows mentioned (there appears to be at least one other cupola caboose around). The regular coach, also orange and maroon, seems to be an open window car numbered 7102. This looks like it might be ex-LIRR but I am not sure. Does anyone know its heritage? There is an open car that I am 99% sure was made from a Grand Trunk Western transfer caboose (which was originally converted from a box car). It supposedly is numbered 758, but the transfer cabooses were numbered 750xx on the GTW. Two other GTW transfer cabooses are still sitting on a spur track, both of these unconverted. There are at least two other passenger cars on the property besides 7102, one of which is apparently regularly used during days of increased attendance and is ex-Penn Central, still wearing its faded jade green paint where the rust hasn't made its presence known. Anyone know this cars number? Is this the last former Penn Central passenger car still wearing its original PC green? Maybe its been re-painted recently. One internet site reported that the line had acquired a wood bodied New York Central cupola caboose which is stored inside. The line is ex-Big Four, so a NYC caboose might be a good historical artifact. No videos of that car, so can't confirm it is actually there.

Les

> Are tourist railroads interested in preservation?

No, they're interested in hauling tourists for revenues.

The places that are interested in railway preservation are called railroad museums.

So what differentiates one from the other? That's the "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin" question in the Railway Preservation business. Ask 20 people, get 20 different answers.

Bob -

True. But if the CK&S was STRICTLY a tourist railroad only intersted in hauling people for revenues, there wouldn't seem to be much reason to acquire a wood NYC caboose. Providing of course, they DID actually acquire such a thing.

Les

Les, I suspect that even tourist railroads do this because they like trains. You know the old joke "Know how to make a small fortune in tourist railroading?"

Nobody is doing this solely for the money. The difference is like two people buying an old car. One rebuilds it as close to factory specs as possible, using original parts when available, factory paint scheme, etc etc. The other says "That looks cool! I think I'll buy it... Hey, can you drop a Hemi in that? Let's chop the top. Paint it green. Put a kicking stereo in there, be sure it can connect to my iPod! Put some big tires on the back too..."

Both of them "Like old cars", but they have vastly varying opinions on what you can and cannot do with them.

Back to tourist railroads, even some of the "big name" shops sometimes make drastic changes and updates during restoration. It all comes down to priorities.

Hi Les:
Yes coach 7102 is former LIRR.
Sold to Steamtown and restored for the Vermont Bicentenial train, later was one of our service coaches at Bellows Falls. It was moved to Scranton along with most everything else. I am not sure if it was ever used at Scranton, but it was sold at the second Steamtown auction (1988?) to Sloan Cornell for use on his Knox & Kane RR. It was auctioned off again in October 2008...
J.David
PS: Those LIRR "Ping Pongs" were awful to ride in and worse to maintain. Oh, they were simple enough, but the frames were forever cracking, especially where the sidebearing strut was attached to the centersill. I tried a number of "fixes", but nothing could overcome the poor design... JDC

All good discussion here as "we" collectively move forward as a group.