TMNY: Copper wire thieves indicted

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:18 pm

If we're going to take this to extremes, I could just see some defense attorney demanding proof that someone owns the locomotive or whatever in the first place. I mean, locomotives and rail cars don't exactly come with titles or registrations.

As a real world example, I once helped to replace, with iron, the stolen copper air lines on an EMD E8. The stuff was stolen while the locomotive was being handed off from one museum to another. Now, exactly who prosecutes the charge of theft, had the thief been caught?

Evan · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 am

The other thread on scrap metal thieves reminds me I haven't informed you of the sentencing results from TMNY's copper theft and arrests:

Clinton Padusnak sentenced to 2 to 4 years and restitution, he was also supposed to pay $2000 restitution at time of sentencing, but (surprise) he couldn't come up with the cash, so he's lost the usual prisoner allowance. He's now in state prison.

Julian Wynkoop sentenced to 5 years probation and restitution.

Thomas Travis · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:39 pm **Posts:** 78

HVRM at North Judson IN, has installed security cameras on the signal poles and
inside all the buildings. So if something is wrong, just review the picture and go from
there. We had 2 guys actually caught stealing who live just across the C&I from the
museum. Vandalism has been down to nothing since the kids were identifed who broke windows an graffitied on cars, restitution was part of the court sentence, in additon to communtiy work. Taught them a good lesson.

Tom Travis HVRM Restoration Dept

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

If we're going to take this to extremes, I could just see some defense attorney demanding proof that someone owns the locomotive or whatever in the first place. I mean, locomotives and rail cars don't exactly come with titles or registrations.

They normally come with a bill of sale, just like most items that are stolen and cut up for scrap. That's all you need.

I had a piece of nice thick flat steel worth $10K stolen. All I had for proof was an invoice. It was probably scrapped for $500, but it was custom manufactured to go under a brand new diamond, and the replacement cost $10k or so by the time they made it and shipped it.

Quote:

As a real world example, I once helped to replace, with iron, the stolen copper air lines on an EMD E8. The stuff was stolen while the locomotive was being handed off from one museum to another. Now, exactly who prosecutes the charge of theft, had the thief been caught?

Simple, the legal owner at the time the theft occurred. Presumably the new museum, unless the sale was written up that they didn't take possession of the item until it was on their property. Typically you take legal possession as soon as it leaves the seller's facility, though that can be modified of course.

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

Thomas Travis wrote:

HVRM at North Judson IN, has installed security cameras on the signal poles and
inside all the buildings....

Better take a cold hard look at those videos. Usually they can only tell you what happened, and they're not good enough to identify the suspect. (The interior ones may be an exception, but the ones on the pole are pretty much useless for anything more than establishing what happened and when.)

We had a dump truck stolen by a local who took it on a joy ride and parked it in the swamp when he was done. (The truck won't start, it has water in the carburetor... Are you sure about that? Yep, the entire engine is under water...)

The Port Facility has plenty of cameras. It was clear how he got there, when it was stolen, and you could get a good idea of the person's general description. But not a good enough shot of the face to positively ID a suspect. Not that it would have mattered anyway, they're pretty certain they know the individual in question, and he just about has to float a loan to buy a bottle of Ripple. You weren't getting him to pay for a dump truck, much to the insurance company's dismay.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:35 pm

Bobharbison wrote:

Simple, the legal owner at the time the theft occurred. Presumably the new museum, unless the sale was written up that they didn't take possession of the item until it was on their property. Typically you take legal possession as soon as it leaves the seller's facility, though that can be modified of course.

You speak as if there were money involved. Literally, as far as we can tell, the theft happened while the one museum was arranging donation to the second, and the second was making arrangements for pick-up of the loco by a Class One. The inspectors discovered the sabotage.

Al Stangenberger · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 12:59 pm **Posts:** 650

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Now, exactly who prosecutes the charge of theft, had the thief been caught?

Aren't there two legal questions being confused here?

As I understand it,

The people prosecute a charge of theft, not the owner of the property.

The question of ownership of the property determines who has standing to file a civil action for restitution (although the criminal justice system can also order restitution as part of a criminal sentence).

But I'm not a lawyer.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:33 am

Al Stangenberger wrote:

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Now, exactly who prosecutes the charge of theft, had the thief been caught?

Aren't there two legal questions being confused here?

Rephrased:

Who gets the local police to follow up on it, rides their posteriors, gets the police report, etc.?

In the very recent past, I read a newspaper report on a murder victim found, according to the police, "next to an an abandoned railroad car" that I know darn well 1) was on a particular museum's property and 2) was stored on a siding and not abandoned. (I've taken a liberty or paraphrase or two to obscure the location in question.) Now, it's entirely possible, albeit unlikely, that the murder investigation occurred without the railroad/museum's knowledge. But if the police/media regard your pending exhibits or parts cars on your property as "abandoned," how seriously will they take vandalism, arson, or worse against your property?

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

Quote:

I read a newspaper report on a murder victim found, according to the police, "next to an an abandoned railroad car"

Don't believe everything you read in the paper. They're not exactly noted for accuracy and top notch journalism these days. Just because an underpaid intern wrote that does not mean that the police actually consider the property to be abandoned.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:29 pm

Bobharbison wrote:

Don't believe everything you read in the paper. They're not exactly noted for accuracy and top notch journalism these days. Just because an underpaid intern wrote that does not mean that the police actually consider the property to be abandoned.

A quick check across several sources (online and print/TV) finds the "abandoned train car" meme repeated by seasoned crime beat reporters, not "underpaid interns." I will credit a few of the veterans with properly identifying the property in question as the railroad excursion/museum.

Oddly enough, the police department in question has still not posted its report (just the basic facts) online that I can see/find.

Evan · **Posted:** Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:11 pm

I won't speak to the other incidents mentioned in this thread, but I suppose TMNY should consider themselves lucky that the theft resulted in prosecutable felonies. It was the description of the wire combined with the paper records of the local scrap yards that made the case (there was no camera evidence, no fingerprints, no footprints, etc otherwise). We did have to patiently explain to the investigators a few times that the nature of the wire (shiny, grooved, and looking like it was cut from a spool) was sufficiently unique that it couldn't have come from anywhere else in the region. If they had stolen the equivalent ordinary copper pipe, the connection back to the source would have been much weaker.

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

They're marking copper wire now to make it uniquely identifiable. I think other manufacturers are doing something similar.

http://www.southwire.com/distribution/P ... Copper.htm

Quote:

Copper theft is an epidemic affecting utilities nationwide. Theft compromises the continuity of power supply and endangers utility personnel and the public. Until now, no product has been able to provide proof of ownership of stolen copper which is the critical element in the prosecution of criminals.

To help utilities protect their investments, Southwire has developed traceable, theft-deterrent grounding solutions: Proof Positive® Copper and Proof Positive® Copper-Clad Steel. No matter what the utility’s grounding preference, they can enjoy the same Proof Positive® protection.

Both Proof Positive® products provide:

TRACEABILITY IMMEDIATE PROOF OF OWNERSHIP:

Center strand contains a series of laser-etched Trace ID codes
Online database contains ownership data for verification
Utilities, recyclers, and law enforcement agencies can access data in real-time
LONG-TERM THEFT DETERRENT SOLUTION:

Tinned outer and center strand distinguish it from other bare copper and copper-clad steel
Visual identification is key to alerting recyclers that the product has likely been stolen
Visual identification also serves as a deterrent for thieves
Steel core of Proof Positive® Copper-Clad Steel is harder to cut and has lower scrap value than solid copper