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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:57 pm 

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:55 pm
Posts: 269
Location: San Diego area
The Maritime Museum of San Diego owns and operates the bark [i]STAR OF INDIA[[i], built in 1863 (are there any locomotives around that are older than that?). She is the oldest operating merchant ship in the world. But, you do need to define operating. They normally take her out to sea both days of one weekend per year, weather permitting. However, the weather factor usually isn't a problem here. Some years she doesn't sail, due to various extensive restoration work that needs doing.

She has an iron hull, with wood decks, so a lot of the work has involved replacing rotten wood, especially where water gets in between the wood and the iron frame supporting it. Recently, they also have had to do work on the iron that has rusted around where the wood is.

But, because of its age and value as an artifact, she is primarily a display piece, but she is kept in sailing condition, and is sailed on a limited basis. She is pretty spectacular just tied up at the dock, but watching her actually under sail is something that can't be beat.

Similarly, extremely rare railroad artifacts, are great when cosmetically restored and displayed. But the experience of seeing such artifacts actually operating, even if only infrequently, is much better.

For the public,to experience operating sailing or rail artifacts, is an opportunity that should not be missed.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Wowak wrote:
The Space Shuttle Enterprise took damage one the deck of the Intrepid in NYC as well, and she's no replica. Although Enterprise never went to orbit, she is an Orbiter, complete with an Orbiter hull number, OV-101.

Don't get me started on this. There's been a great deal of bandwidth among space fans as to the sanity of placing the Enterprise on the deck under a flipping tent. Many (myself included) predicted exactly this situation when the plans for the 'temporary' display of the orbiter was announced. The Intrepid also promised a purpose-built building for the concorde they got a while back, which now site on the dock, exposed to the weather and instead of the building THAT promised structure, the museum instead promised another one and got an orbiter. Meanwhile, several excellent museums already had plenty of permanent room for one.
We're all grateful (though a little surprised) that the Enterprise also didn't do a half-gainer into the Hudson during this storm...

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:21 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Location: Danbury, CT
Bobharbison wrote:
The motivation is pretty obvious, isn't it? They were trying to move the ship out of the area affected by the storm. As was mentioned, if they had not had an engine failure, the ship would have had no problems with the conditions.

I can't find exact details at the moment, so rather than posting incorrect data, I'll just say that Captain Walbridge was an experienced and respected captain, with many years at the helm of the Bounty. During those many years he's obviously been in a lot of storms before.

The ship was 200 miles off the coast, heading in a direction that was out of the worst part of the storm. Had the engines not failed, it is quite likely the ship would have been a very minor footnote in the storm, reading something like "The Bounty sailed south to Florida to avoid the storm..."

Had the ship remained at dock and been damaged or destroyed, the captain would have been criticized for that as well. It's very common practice for ships to head out to sea in the face of an advancing storm, typically they can ride the storm out better away from land. But it's always a gamble, and you don't always win.

He made a choice to take a voyage that should have been well within the ship's capabilities. He had no way to know the engines would fail. He chose to abandon ship when the situation deteriorated and he nearly made it into the life raft. Three crewmembers were swept overboard as they tried to abandon ship. One was pulled into a raft, one was later found dead, and the captains fate is unknown at this time, though it certainly doesn't look promising for him.

There are plenty of "what if's" and "why didn't he?" in this story. It's easy to criticize his decision after the fact, hindsight is always 20/20. But we don't know all of the details yet, and we may well never know them.

It is likely that his decisions and the engine failure cost him his life. That happens from time to time at sea. He's not the first captain to go down with his ship, nor will he be the last. It's a dangerous profession, and there's little margin for error.

Of course the ships would be safer if they stayed at the docks. But then they wouldn't be ships, would they?



As I mentioned before, I have the highest level of respect for captains and have been bestowed the burden of responsibility myself. I am quite familiar with the operational practices of ships. I know first hand what weather and seas can do to a ship an her crew. I have experienced blown out sails, damaged spars, heavy seas, high winds, equipment failures, injured crewmembers, and rescues at sea. I respect Captain Walbridge and am aware of his experience. I am saddened by the idea that he may be lost to the sea.

http://www.cga.edu/eagle.aspx?id=689

I also mentioned that other and more seaworthy vessels stayed in port rather than "running". Picton Castle, Pride of Baltimore II, A.J. Meerwald, Kalmar Nyckel, Eagle, and Mystic Whaler all chose to stay and they'll sail again. Eagle and Mystic Whaler who are both homeported in New London, where Bounty departed from, weathered the storm just fine. Eagle moved up-river to the submarine base in Groton while Mystic Whaler went to Mystic Seaport. Personally, I would rather be criticized for damages incurred while at the pier rather than what happened to Bounty. A ship safe in port is still a ship. The Bounty is a wreck now. It was indeed a gamble. Unfortunately, they lost.

These are my personal feelings, of course. If I were in his position, I think I'd have acted differently. If I chose to run, I think I'd choose another port. It is indeed easy to say from shore. However, at the same time, if I were one of Captain Walbridge's crew, I'd follow his orders and willingly carry them out to the best of my ablilities.

Fair winds and royals all the way to the Captain and crew of the HMS Bounty.

Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep,
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea

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Last edited by Mount Royal on Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:30 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
Posts: 534
Location: Danbury, CT
Jim Baker wrote:
The Maritime Museum of San Diego owns and operates the bark [i]STAR OF INDIA[[i], built in 1863 (are there any locomotives around that are older than that?). She is the oldest operating merchant ship in the world. But, you do need to define operating. They normally take her out to sea both days of one weekend per year, weather permitting. However, the weather factor usually isn't a problem here. Some years she doesn't sail, due to various extensive restoration work that needs doing.

She has an iron hull, with wood decks, so a lot of the work has involved replacing rotten wood, especially where water gets in between the wood and the iron frame supporting it. Recently, they also have had to do work on the iron that has rusted around where the wood is.

But, because of its age and value as an artifact, she is primarily a display piece, but she is kept in sailing condition, and is sailed on a limited basis. She is pretty spectacular just tied up at the dock, but watching her actually under sail is something that can't be beat.

Similarly, extremely rare railroad artifacts, are great when cosmetically restored and displayed. But the experience of seeing such artifacts actually operating, even if only infrequently, is much better.

For the public,to experience operating sailing or rail artifacts, is an opportunity that should not be missed.


The Star is truly a treasure. The barque Elissa at the Texas Seaport Museum is another.

http://www.galvestonhistory.org/Texas_S ... Museum.asp

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:53 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Location: Danbury, CT
The public portion of the investigation has drawn to a close. Here is some interesting reading that features the testimony of several shipwrights, Captains, a surveyor, Bounty organization employees, and of course, the surviving crew members. You will notice that the Bounty's owner remains silent. This is an eight part article. http://gcaptain.com/bounty-hearings-chi ... testifies/

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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Location: Youngstown, OH
I read all eight parts of the article, and what I conclude is that there was a culture of incompetence among the crew. Emergency backup systems were not tested and used because the captain did not want to "wear them out"; the chief engineer had insufficient knowledge of the ship's systems; the bosuns weren't fully versed on maintaining the hull. Aside from the captain there were no experienced hands on board. Also, because the vessel was not engaged in commercial activities it fell through the cracks of regulations designed to address these issues.

We can learn much from this incident. The lack of proper training, allowing safety systems to degrade and become unusable and taking shortcuts in maintenance are all things that can happen on railroads too. The one thing in our favor is that if one of our engine's fail the train doesn't sink!

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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I must agree.

As a mariner though, lots of changes are going to come from this, which isn't always a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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Nova55 wrote:
I must agree.

As a mariner though, lots of changes are going to come from this, which isn't always a good thing.


I'm involved with tall ships, but only from a photography point of view. I'm not well versed in the technical aspects.

That said, it appears to me that this will likely be their version of the Gettysburg boiler incident.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:31 pm 

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With a ship like the Star of India, how do you maintain crew skills and training when the ship only operates two days a year?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:09 pm
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softwerkslex wrote:
With a ship like the Star of India, how do you maintain crew skills and training when the ship only operates two days a year?



You have them crew on other boats, and have more then enough experienced guys on hand when you do go out. I dont know, nor want to know tall ships, but there's enough things that translate over, many of which are outlined in the Gcaptain articles. Simply put, you dont have a novice crew go out in that, when they dont even know how to prime a trash pump. Im not a captain, but thats just bad. But these are my opinions.

Back to fighting the bilge monster..

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:28 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:21 pm
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Hot Metal wrote:
I read all eight parts of the article, and what I conclude is that there was a culture of incompetence among the crew. Emergency backup systems were not tested and used because the captain did not want to "wear them out"; the chief engineer had insufficient knowledge of the ship's systems; the bosuns weren't fully versed on maintaining the hull. Aside from the captain there were no experienced hands on board. Also, because the vessel was not engaged in commercial activities it fell through the cracks of regulations designed to address these issues.

We can learn much from this incident. The lack of proper training, allowing safety systems to degrade and become unusable and taking shortcuts in maintenance are all things that can happen on railroads too. The one thing in our favor is that if one of our engine's fail the train doesn't sink!


Exactly right! It is unfortunate, yet appropriate, that a majority of the blame rests on the shoulders of her master. However, many including myself, wonder how much Bounty's owner knew about the state of his vessel or even cared. We may never know. It is interesting that captains were interviewed from two of the vessels that I had mentioned in previous posts with regard to staying in port. Dan Moreland is the captain on Picton Castle. He was scheduled to depart for their tour of the south Pacific around the same time as Bounty's departure from New London. He decided to stay put and when interviewed over the phone in Tahiti, he said that he would not have sailed Bounty if he were her captain. That's powerful testimony from one of the most respected and experienced tall ship skippers in the world.

As for sailing a vessel like the Star of India...... I would imagine (and hope) that many of her crew are experienced sailors from other tall ships of similar class. Notice I said similar class. Sailing a square rigger is not the same as sailing a schooner or other fore and aft rigged vessel. I would also imagine that the crew is very familiar with the vessel and its rigging. A lot of training can be held pierside, including sail handling. Finally, I'm sure that the Star's sailing days are closely supervised and well regulated.

I was once offered an oppourtunity to sail on the Star, but was unable to get the time off of Eagle to participate. I hope to be sailing Charles W. Morgan next year, which would more than make up for that!

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:57 am 

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Has the wreck been found?


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Bounty and the Catastrophic loss of historic artifac
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:23 am 

Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:55 pm
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Location: San Diego area
Not being personally involved with the STAR OF INDIA at the Maritime Museum of San Diego I can't comment specifically on the crew's training. However, being a resident of San Diego, and the fact that my grandfather, father, and brother have all been past members of that museum's board of directors, I do keep up on things in general there. (I'm the black sheep of the family, getting involved with trains instead of boats)

They have an extensive training program, and the volunteers on the sail crew train dock-side on an almost weekly basis year-round. The Star is larger then the Bounty, about 1300 tons. While the museum has another, active, smaller sailing ship, the CALIFORNIAN, it is not a square rigger, so I don't know how much cross-training is done with the crews.

And, of course, taking it out for a day sail, in good weather, with tugs standing by, and hundreds of spectator boats (foamers?), is a totally different thing than trying to sail for a long distance in bad weather. I'm sure that any indication of bad weather on a scheduled sailing date would be reason to cancel the sailing.


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