I see a lot of huffing and puffing and waiving of hands and yelling and hypothasizing, but no dollars. None. Seems to be the same tune played on a different flute.

I hate to see anyplace go, but a lack of money coupled with a seeming lack of real short term (5year +/-) revenue possibilities and a property that has been allowed to fall into disrepair means unless there is a millionaire out there who loves the railroad more than money, it's done for. It sure is a shame.

An assessment by a professional firm like Stone Consulting could have gone a long way to clarify current valuation of the property AND feasibility of future operation as a railway enterprise for potential owners. But I fear that opportunity has come and gone for our friends at Stewartstown.

Wesley

[quote="robertmacdowell]You talk the talk of a serious donor... in which case you are definitely thinking and judging way too much for someone who has not yet TALKED TO THEM DIRECTLY. It should be you who should be investigating, and reporting back to us.[/quote]

On the contrary....it isn't me that is trying to attract investment. Their job is to sell me, mine to skeptically consider their presentation. A good business case competently and realistically set out rather than a desperate "sky is falling" plea will impress me. If I were to be looking for a preservation project to support in that area. I'd write a check to the 113 people, not these guys. I have actually researched this situation through backchannel conversations with knowledgeable people who have track records operating successful railroads and know this line intimately - its operating history and current condition and situation - who have no emotional axe to grind clouding realistic business judgement, and base my opinion on that research.

In railroading there are very few "comparables". Most have already had the weaker sister disappear. Each case must have its merits explored individually.

dave

That's a high-falootin notion and I agree in principle, but that does not correspond to real world realities in railway preservation. How many railroad museums in the U.S. can meet your high standard? A dozen?

And what should the rest do while you're being wined and dined in a state of the art building by the executive director wearing a tie. Hmm? Should they all just fall off a fiscal cliff? Guess what. I've seen most of that dozen, and they do a good job at their core thing (usually a train ride, sometimes a showy static museum)... but the only thing they preserve decently well is the ED's little empire. Don't look behind the velvet curtain because you will not like what you see: no preservation, no capability, and no plan.

You come along and donate $50,000, and they wine and dine you better, but your money gets tossed in some fund, its intent forgotten and used to air condition the office. Grrreat.

Now, give a struggling museum $50,000, and the effect is revolutionary. I assure you, they WON'T wine and dine you. Much the opposite, they'll place you on their board, accuse you of taking over, stick it on you to drive the change, then vote against it! LOL! And yet, somehow, you get the right things to happen anyway and a strong museum with good foundations emerges.

There's an old saying, lots of people pass up opportunity because it comes dressed in work clothes. Supporting railroad museums is a lot like that.

If that ain't your thing... there are plenty of places that'll take your check with a smile. Getting that money to have positive effect... now that's the real trick. But that's just what you're complaining about isn't it?


There are plenty of comparables. You just need to have the skill and distinction to see what is similar and what is not, and that means knowing a wide diversity of groups. You don't compare MiTM to WRM, you compare it to Fox River or ORM. Catskill Mountain, you compare that to Hoosier Valley and not IndRM. You need to understand different groups operate on different economic scales and why that works. A lot of loudmouths have a little knowledge of a few operations of one type or on one scale, and suffer "if all you have is a hammer" syndrome. They know shortlines, so they size up Stewartstown as a shortline. They know million dollar railroad museums with executive directors, so they size up Stewartstown as one. It's not one. It is just not.

If the group can operate as a heritage railroad and gross $100k/year, they'll do great. I have the experience to know that, because I've done more with less. I would not touch freight with a 10 foot pole, because it's a huge time and money sink. Hauling tourists and 501c3 is reliable.

Well said, Mr. MacD

For the sake of argument, I must protest.

You seem to suffer from a degree of the same "tunnel vision" you yourself deplore.

Your error is trying to compare the Stewartstown RR's possibilities to another tourist railroad or shortline. What anyone making an independent, honest, realistic assessment of the line as an investment or operating concern has to compare it to is:
*The numerous factory tours in nearby York and Hanover, including the Harley-Davidson plant, York Barbell (and its Weightlifting Hall of Fame) and several pretzel and chip plants;
*Lancaster County's "heritage tourism" industry a mere few minutes down the Lincoln Highway, including Strasburg;
*The York County Agricultural and Industrial Museum;
*Wineries scattered across York County;
*Hershey, Pa. too close, including a chocolate factory "tour" and an amusement park;
*Heritage tourism in adjacent Adams County, including Gettysburg and apples....

Here. HERE is your "comparables" list: http://www.yorkpa.org/index.asp?act=page&pag_id=43

If you fail to recognize that, you're doomed from the start.



[chuckle, snort.....]

Thanks Sandy......first rule of comparables in real estate: LOCATION. Similar isn't comparable, it's just similar - and similar in probably just a few cosmetic respects. One CRITICAL thing is different and the similarities don't mean anything.

Wine and dine? Nope....just demonstrate a realistic plan for why my money won't be wasted and I'm on board to give you serious consideration. Don't try to sell me with image, but with supported facts that can be verified with due diligence through disinterested third parties. Wine and dine me and my feelers go up..........and I get very suspicious. Doesn't mean I won't enjoy the meal while hearing you out. I think there's a Californian perspective involved here that might lead to cultural misunderstandings......abuse of image at the detriment of substance says "scoundrel" to me. Emotional pleas say it even more....like loud patriotism, the last refuge, etc.....

Academic anyhow, I'm nothing like the kind of plutocrat that can pony up more than a token donation but I take as much care to qualify the recipients as any interested plutocrat would and we all should.

dave

"Wine and dine" has its place. There are big-ticket donors out there, individual and corporate, that operate best in that environment. The right "schmoozing" can get you, as a real-life example I saw, a corporation to fully underwrite the complete top-to-bottom restoration of a car, with just a subtle renaming as a pay-off. That doesn't happen with an enginehouse tour unless they're already slobberin' foamers.

People like the Levins, Ross Rowland, Doyle McCormack, PV owners, etc. who are successful in what they do know very well when to show up in work clothes and when to show up in polished shoes and suit and tie. I probably wouldn't recognize a few characters in this field (George Hart, for one, and maybe Linn Moedinger) if they walked up to me in formal attire. But the role of a successful executive director, or at least the chief financial officer or the equivalent, is to keep enough money flowing ONE WAY OR THE OTHER to keep the lights on, doors open, and the decay arrested. The director of the B&O Railroad Museum doesn't have to be able to tell a B&O Q4 from a PRR Q2; he needs to be able to get the Museum to recover financially and logistically from a devastating roundhouse roof collapse. We don't have that many people in this "business" capable of doing that kind of thing, sadly, and most of those kind of folks have "better" things to do with their time than "play with us."

I agree with you Sandy; I was responding to a response to my comments about my perspective. The dog and pony is important in the context you mention......but only if it is backed by real information, not hype.

It would be very useful for all groups - even fledgling ones - hell, ESPECIALLY them - to spend more time developing good ppans and suporting documents than working on paint scraping, and have them available to show to potential donors of any possible amounts.

dave

I'm sorry, but I feel the need to throw in some perspective here and point out that someone awhile back with a few significant bucks to throw around lent this organization $350,000 to rescue it and it apparently didn't do squat, hence the whole reason for this discussion. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Is it really unreasonable to expect the organization to demonstrate that bailing them out again won't be futile? Or are they too small to fail?

You miss one important point: the person who lent the railroad company $350,000 over a 20+ year period was the person managing and controlling the company during this period, up to his death in 2008. -- Ray

And you're holding your breath waiting for that. How's that working out for you?

If you want to make change in railway preservation, you have to deal with it as it actually is, and you have to bring something to the table that isn't already there. And they're all stocked up on people who wag their finger and tell them how to do things.

Hint: you just said what the rare thing is in railway preservation. GO BE IT.


* [this huge list of touristy destinations deleted - yes, we get it, Lancaster County is the ultimate tourist trap with OH SO MANY attractions to compete with the tourist dollar.]

I didn't make an error. But I think you're heading to one. Sure, location is a factor *cough*East*Ely*cough*Durango*cough*Orbisonia*cough*Portola*cough* pardon me for that coughing fit... but you don't even know how to interpret that factor!
What about all these other tourist places? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? You obviously have a very strong assumption about that, since you listed them and thought I would just magically "get it". If you have two Target stores in the same midsize town, do they cannibalize each other's business, or reinforce it? Do you think Mid-Continent succeeds despite the Dells or because of it? Do you think SMRS ridership halves or doubles on speedway race days? Every IRM visitor drives past Fox River, what effect does that have?

"The curious task of economics is to show us how little we know about what we imagine we can design." F. A. Hayek

So if you don't know how or why it'll be a factor... is it really a factor? I don't care whether the area tourism vampires or supports their business. I think it is viable either way. The bar for success is just not that high, unless they are stupid and burden themselves with other strategic objectives they can't pay for (like trying to run steam, or operating every mile of their railroad just because it exists.) They'll be fine if they stick to the core revenue model (move the train they already have back and forth a few miles, and tell people about it). I hear they have the assets in place, notably a working engine and coaches, so not seeing the huge problem.


Get a pad of paper. In the left column, make a list of every shortline in your state (that depends on freight for its livelihood) that has existed in the last 40 years. Now draw a line through every one that has failed.
In the right column, do the same with 501(c)(3) railroad museums.

I'm amazed anything gets preserved sometimes with all the bickering and in-fighting that goes on here... :/ :(

That's the sound of education, sir. The marketplace of ideas, where some think they have the corner on being right.

What troubles me is when people would prefer to feel right, than to allow railway preservation to succeed. In a word: naysaying.

Changing it for the better - in this case fiscally responsible, sustainable and rationally managed - is dealing with it as it is by effecting change through education, one pissed-off foamer with an unsupportable dream at a time. Turns out we are in agreement after all........in philosophies if not specific applications. Cool.........and BTW this is all a part of "being it."

And where I do have some input, yes, it is working out very well for me. The best thing is how well it works out for others involvled too when something does prove itself possible and gains support and gets done. Also "being it."

"Getting it" is frustrating to try to accomplish.......

dave