Alexander, can you prove this statement? If you can, I'd like to see the diagrams, measurements, elevations, and other other information you may have that says an articulated 4-8-8-4 with 68 inch drivers wouldn't be able to traverse the same curve, track, tangent, bridge, etc., that a rigid frame 4-8-4 with 80 inch drivers can.

I've also heard that the centipede tender is most likely the problem, but the 844 pulls one, so is it really?

Can anybody else elaborate on this subject? If so, I'd like to hear it.

Mike S.

While staying away from the arm chair quarter backing by Mid-Atlantic rail fans - get over yourselves, if the UP wants to run it, they’ll figure it out, or they won't - I wanted to address the Steve Lee getting "kicked off" the 4012 at Steamtown incident.

This was a person in plain clothes, without prior arrangement and not instantly recognizable to those who were not a part of his professional circle, who was asked to come down off a piece of equipment on public display that neither he nor his employer currently owned. The fact that it was Steve Lee was irrelevant. That would be like me jumping in the cab of CP 2816 or Central Ohio 1293 because Steamtown used to own it.

It’s not a thing to brag about, and not really a good representation of a person we all respect.

That is all.

The tenders are a source of constant issues, the last near derailment involved 844 in Sacramento reversing and the tender wheels rode up onto the rail. They have had issues with wyes at various times and the tenders are watched very carefully.
All this nonsense about how restricted a big boy is is just that, once again its lighter axle loading than challenger and overhangs 3/8" more thats all.
with a multi million dollar budget you can acheive anything, and thats what is being thrown at this.
Mike Pannell

It's amazing when you think of how the remaining 4000's got to their final resting places. They certainly didn't go via a transporter beam. Looking at rail sizes in use in the 1940's and '50's, the common main line rail was 112-120 Lb. Today mainline rail is pretty much all 135 Lbs or heavier. Yes, the Pennsy used 150+ pound rail, but they were unique at the time. It is pretty unlikely that a Big Boy will bend too many rails. And they did not design the railroad for these locomotives. They were heavy haul and helper power in the mountains. Would be pretty silly to buy locomotives and then spend huge sums to reinvent the railroad to operate them on, especially in the '40's when manpower and materials were hard to come by.

The Big Boy weighs in at about 50 tons more than the current mainline diesels. No problem with a heavy locomotive, there, as the axle loading on a Big Boy (67,000 Lb) is LESS than the axle loading on an AC6000CW (69,000 Lb) or similar modern diesels. For comparison, the 844 has a driver loading of 66,500 lb. Seems to me that the only route limitations would be driven by bridge load limits and other clearance restrictions.

Agreed, I think it is also worth noting that these locomotives all moved from ALCo in Schenectady out to Omaha by rail in the first place.
I won't venture any guesses as to where the locomotive would run. I'll leave that to civil engineers who are competent in the physical state of the current U.P. track structure and mechanical engineers who are intimately familiar with the characteristics of the 4000-class. I'm pretty sure that Last of the Giants was good, but did not really fill me all on the necessary details.
Alas, it is interesting.

Why are we assuming a sort of tour is the basis for the third party's proposal? It may be for a limited operation for a film or a one-shot advertising event......Plans for standing trackside at any given location are certainly premature.

As I understand it, an individual for reasons not yet disclosed, has determined he wants to explore the possibility of making a Big Boy run and rationally approached the best organization in the known universe capable of advising him or executing the job.

Anybody out there truly arrogant enough to advise the UP on what will fit down it's own railroad or whether or not the job is practical or at what probable cost?

The COOL thread was more rational than this bunch of baseless speculation.

Wait and see what happens and don't worry abut the details - smarter people who really know what they're doing are working on the idea. Unless you know more than the UP I'm not interested in your opinion, and wish you'd refrain from posting it.

dave

I find it ironic I repaired a model Rivarrossi Big Boy for a friend and found it would traverse 15 inch radius minus the tender...surprised me...that was the whole point of articulation, and the rear drivers were pivoted as well.

I would think a 4-12-2 has a harder time around curves than the big boy. I do also recall the steamtown big boy was run over the rails to there no problem, just routing correctly for clearances.

What I also hear it would be converted to oil, it may not be an issue since you're not going to be trying to run heavy freights. But you will have to measure coal/vs oil for this engine because note...it was designed for -coal-. It would be interesting to see performance reports for the one Big Boy tried with oil.

I'll repeat a story I heard about coaling these engines I read somewhere, when in operation you get the stoker going, the fire hot and so on, the fire would start to lift off the grates as the coal would get burned completely before it hit the grates.
I'm trying to remember where I read this, but it will be something to think about when running a big boy.

If I might enter the following into evidence:

The site at which this incident occurred.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

Enter these coordinates

32.785167,-96.76966

For the record I am merely sharing these items to further the argument that a 4-8-8-4 could negotiate as tight a curve as a 4-8-4. Enjoy.

Mike S.

As I recall, only one of the 4000's was converted to oil with a single burner and it didn't work out too well. I would bet that with the experience gained with converting and fine tuning the 3985 over the years, it wouldn't be too big of a deal to convert it to oil. I personally won't be getting too excited about this until I see the pictures of the 4014 being towed out of the fairgrounds.

So many others have commented on this, I might as well toss in two cents. . .

The Big Boy should be able to go anywhere 844 can, at least as far as track alignment is concerned, for the reasons cited--articulation, shorter rigid wheelbase, and lateral motion devices. Reportedly the machine is designed for a maximum curvature of 20 degrees (this would be at low speed in something like a yard or engine terminal). This is far sharper than what the locomotive would likely encounter on the main line.

http://www.trainweb.org/jlsrr/bigboy/in ... nsions.htm

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/?page=up

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/bigboy/

Of greater concern would be clearances on curves; it's quite amazing how far the smokebox of a Mallet or its simple counterpart swings out on a curve, and those running boards on the side go out even further. Recall that the 3985 got into a bit of trouble on this account when it was on the Clinchfield for the Santa train. Equally important will be the condition of secondary track the locomotive may have to negotiate, such as a wye; again recall that 3985 had such trouble on CSX (the problem being with that centipede tender, of course).

I don't think 3985's running gear had any problems on CSX's main track, it was things like a wye that may have not been used for Clinchfield's own Challengers and altered track centers on curves that were the cause of all the trouble! If there will be any operational difficulty from a 4000, that's where it will be.

In any event, I hope this does work out well. The deciding factors will be economic; will it be seen as worthwhile, if not actually profitable, to breath life back into such a beast?

P.S.: I recall Ross Rowland's 614 being turned on a wye track at the interchange for the former Cumberland Valley Railroad (later PRR, Conrail, and now Winchester & Western) at Martinsburg, W.Va., on what was then a Chessie Safety Express excursion. That track was and is sharp, and wasn't in the best condition. I recall the rockers on the trailing truck laying over to an almost horizontal position, the steam pipes to the booster taking on some of the craziest angles, the leading truck noticeably swinging out from the front of the locomotive, the drivers and rods showing visible lateral displacement, and the cab gangway being very close to pinched shut on the inside of the curve, and undoubtedly open wide on the outside. Because of this the engine was turned independently of the train (local freight engines handled the coaches), and I understand the rail was very nicely greased to help the big Lima around that curve. I didn't hear it, but supposedly someone joked to Ross that he had better watch that he didn't get a short circuit between the locomotive and tender on that curve (those who are model railroaders who have worked with metal steam locomotive models, in which the locomotive and tender are of opposite polarities, will get that).

I was involved in a online discussion with Steve Lee years ago, and his comment was that 3985 could go around a sharper curve then the 844, but the it's centipede tender would not go around as sharp a curve as the 3985.

-Hudson

Please allow me to speak to several aspects of this thread;

1. To Jim Boylan....Thanks for your compliments on the Golden Spike Centennial Limited effort. We had the GG1 repainted into GSCL paint scheme so that the last few miles of the journey ( Baltimore-NYPenn) would be as good looking as the rest of the nearly transcontinental adventure.
At this point your smeller is off as my involvement in this is so far limited to what I'm reading on the various forums.

2. To J3A-614.....Yes, we used the wye at Martinsburg a number of times to turn 614 and on several occassions she kept the consist with her and turned the whole lash up herself. Some of the track then involved in that complex wye was 90lb. rail and there were a good number of fairly sharp curves but she got around it just fine. The Lima guys really knew what they were doing when they designed the lateral relief devices as on various occassions ( and frequently within the Hoboken NJ terminal complex) she went through # 8 turnouts and around 12-15 degree curves without an issue.

3. Big Boy....... Personally I hope there's substance to all the chatter as I'd rejoice seeing one of these magnificent machines come back to life and as this unfolds I'd be honored to lend a helping hand if asked to do so. I wish all involved the best of success and will be very interested in their progress.

Who knows what's possible. Perhaps a reborn Big Boy might just be the spark needed to get a certain sleeping giant eastern railroad to get behind giving a second life to one of the two surviving C&O H-8's. As all you serious steam lovers know the H8's were the most powerful steam locomotives ever built in No. America even though the Big Boys are given that unearned accolade.

Wouldn't it be an event to remember to have a best 2 out of 3 contest between the 2, with identical tonnage trains say on Horseshoe Curve or 17 mile grade or Cajon or one of the other 2 track mountain grades. Bet we could sell lots of bleacher seats for that one. After that we'd know for sure which one was the " biggest cock on the walk" once and for all.

Let's see what happens.

Merry Christmas. Ross Rowland

Hey Ross!

From my mouth to your keyboard..... Have you had your spies on me again? lol Seriously though, I had said exactly that on thursday.

It's amazing how much so many people don't want this to happen and are using myth, lore, legend and past miss-spoken attempts at conveying percieved truths as the reasons why it never could happen or as reasons why anyone who attempts to do so posses an inteligence lesser than they.

With that in mind (and knowing you are rather fond of the Christmas season) I wonder if you find this to be an appropriate inclusion?

Ross, too many of our little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Ross, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Ross, there are possibilities. They exist as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no possibilities! It would be as dreary as if there were no Rosss. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished!

You get the idea.....

Do excuse the plagarism and slight creative license.

Cheers and happy holidays Ross to you and all the New Hopers, Jason

Excuse me. I was there, too. It was back in the mid-to-late-1990's. There were a lot of steam people at Steamtown, attending a symposium of some kind.

Nobody was "on" any equipment, much less the 4012. We were all asked (told, by uniformed and armed park rangers, of which there was no shortage) to get away from that locomotive and all the rest of them, because we were "too close and might get hurt".

I still remember the laughter, along with a comment along the lines of "no wonder this place has such a screwed up reputation."

Say, I was looking at the current satellite photo on Google, and it appears there is a tree growing in the coal bay of 4012.