You're deliberately distorting the situation by insisting the rail museums be 501(c)3 operations. Stewartstown wasn't a 501(c)3. Neither are an awful lot of the places we talk about. Not Strasburg. Not EBT. Not Grand Canyon. Not WK&S. Not Black River & Western.

In Maryland, we have only a couple rail museums/operations of any consequence that are 501(c)3--B&O Railroad Museum and Baltimore Streetcar Museum, Bowie, National Capital Trolley, and a couple station museums (Hagerstown Roundhouse Museum, Brunswick, Gaithersburg, etc.). Several of those, including Gaithersburg and BSM, depend on the graces of local government to survive. (BSM's property is leased from the City.) WMSR is another government anomaly.

Excursion operations that have failed over the past 40 years include the Chesapeake RR, the Ocean City Western, and the Maryland Midland/EnterTrainment Line. The only "short lines" we have are the Canton, the George's Creek Railway, the Maryland Midland, and some bits of the Maryland & Delaware, mostly moribund. Only short line to "fail" was the East Washington, though the OCW hauled some freight.

Now, you want to try this with Pennsylvania, the state involved here? The list of short lines is now very long, and there have been a number of "failed" excursion operations. Right off the top of my head: Fayette Central, Magee, Gettysburg, Penn View Mountain, Knox & Kane, Everett (steam days), Stewartstown, Buckingham Trolley/Penns Landing, Brandywine Valley, Blue Mountain & Reading, West Shore Excursions.... East Broad Top and Stourbridge Line are "on hiatus".....

No I'm not. I'm recommending to use structures which are durable. Which are those? Do the test and see. You're deliberately attacking the analysis method, perhaps because you can see its conclusion would contradict your preconceived notions. A good scientist can't afford to be tricked like that.

There are significant differences in how these types of organizations fundraise and how much funds reach them (as oppose being diverted to the IRS one way or the other). Money is critical to financial viability. I'm not saying 501c3's should be more stable, I'm saying find out.


All successful. All for-profits. Correlation is causality! Oh wait, you have another list.


That's actually a great list because it came off the top of your head, you are not deliberately "stacking" it to favor one result or the other. OK, put it down and see what you get. I actually have no idea whether any or all of those were 501c3's.

But it's an important question. Because it informs how to build successful organizations.

Assuming you want to be informed. I hope so, because the ever-present lesson is how little we know. But still, some think the informing is their job.


That logic could also rationalize naysaying as somehow being good for railway preservation. Which it most certainly is not.

The dream of a foamer is precious. It should not be smashed, but guided to success. It is a far different thing to say why something cannot work, as opposed to working out how it can work. Getting things like this across the finish line is what I do for sport. You don't hear me splash water on ideas very often, do you?

Yet that is all you and Mitchell have said in this thread. Occam's razor says you are just naysayers.

Just as an outsider following this thread out of curiosity (mostly with incredulity), I would humbly suggest that the rhetoric here needs to be toned down before the moderators nip the thread.

Also, I would observed that, had reality appertained here, the Stewartstown RR would have been ripped up, following which it would have vanished into history--about 10 thread pages back! Talk about beating a dead horse...!

IMHO, of course.

Mike

Robert:

I will make the case that the 501(c)3 model seems to work successfully for static, non-operating museums (B&O, station museums, etc.) and support groups for bigger museums ("Friends of EBT/C&TS/Stewartstown/RR Museum of Pa./etc."). There are a few museums with operations that are 501(c)3 to my knowledge--Tennessee Valley, IRM, Rockhill, Pa. Trolley Museum, etc.--but these are still largely collections with demonstration lines, not a tourist railway.

Fine.

Start a non-profit dedicated to preserving the Stewartstown. Find some way to convince some angel to pay off the note. Turn it over to the Friends of the Stewartstown Railroad.

Then what? What's the future plan?

Call me a naysayer if you will. Those of us who have been close to the situation and the railroad for the past twenty-five years or so have damned good reason for it. We may be cynical, but we're also being bloody realistic.

The region is OVERsaturated with rail preservation: Ma & Pa at Muddy Creek Forks, Strasburg, RR Museum of Pa., Gettysburg, Walkersville Southern, Middletown & Hummelstown, WK&S, B&O Museum, Baltimore Streetcar Museum, Rockhill, EBT (emeritus?), Harris Tower, Hunt Tower, PRRT&HS Lewistown..... Go a little further--Steamtown, Altoona, Bellefonte, White Deer, Wilmington & Western, WMSR, Hagerstown, West Chester, Bowie, National Capital.....

The people I know who volunteered for the Stewartstown also volunteered for several other places or had their own projects going elsewhere. Everyone who's an active railfan in this region--doing things, not just standing trackside and snapping photos--is spread out between several projects of focused with blinders on one specific project. And then you have the guys divided between rail projects and family/church/other civic projects as well.

Calling us "naysayers" is simply attacking the messenger. Give us reason to say "yay" instead, and something based on reality, not fantasy.

I want it. I really do. But I've been waiting ever since that last excursion derailed in April of 2004. And, just as with the East Broad Top, I've expended all the energy I have to spare on the status quo. Show me (and many others) a fundamental change, and I'll reconsider.

I don't think Robert knows much about this particular railroad; I think he's more interested in a larger context, which is a perspective i can respect but which doesn't really have a lot to do with the impracticality of this particular situation.

Naysaying when NAY needs to be said isn't a bad thing. It's at least half of democracy. Used more in personal life decisions, it might make us healthier and more prosperous......but I digress.

Dreams aren't precious - dreams with well thought out and practical plans for their implementation and sustainable success are. First pass the vision through the reality mill, and if it comes out whole then share them and seek suport. Otherwise, let them litter the ground with all the other dead leaves, to rot into mulch and fertilize the future of something else.

Last thing about naysaying and criticism....if you are getting that as a response it is very useful information if it is targeted and supported since it will tell you what part of your proposal needs to be rethought and perhaps might make your larger vision more workable. I ASK people who I know have good analytical skills and a good base of knowledge to tear my proposals apart.....what frustrates me is that they don't seem to have much time to do so. This kind of brainstorming - NOT blind acceptance - is what makes a proposal turn from weak into workable. You have to know the flaws before you can fix them.

dave

The 501 (c) 3 model does not work well when revenues, especially non related business revenues outweigh contributions. You cannot run a short line as a tax exempt non profit with most of your revenue coming from moving freight cars. You are not contributing to your exempt mission by providing common carrier freight service.

So in that situation you create a subsidiary common carrier for profit entity to run the freight side, and the non profit runs the museum and demonstration railroad. However, IF the freight side is run entirely by volunteers, it could be run by the non profit without jeopardizing tax exempt status.

If you want my worthless opinion on the Stewartstown... Give it up! As Andy say there are other worthy projects in the region. Put your energies toward making those operations stronger and let these lost causes go by the wayside. There are only so many of us out there and we cannot sustain every piece of uneconomic railroad track that exists.

It really makes this IRM member question a few things...

<SARCASM MODE ON>
Is it assumed that EVERY visitor to IRM travels FROM Chicago, and travels via either US20 or I-90?
What about visitors from the North? West? or South? are they REQUIRED to detour thru Elgin?
Will I now be required to discontinue my "scenic route" via Rt14, and Rt 176?
What if, God forbid, I choose to travel ria Rt 62? Or Rt 68?
Will the world come to an end?
</SARCASM>
My point being, NEVER assume you know where all your visitors travel from, or the route they take...blanket assumptions will end up being wrong, EVERY TIME!

Jeff

I still can't get over the fact that the Bucks County PRESERVATION Society wants to destroy this historic railroad. If they scrapped the line would the value after the expense of scrapping come even close to satisfying the debt? I wrote two very polite letter to them, care of the Mercer Museum, but received no reply.

Kate Shelley Museum scraps a Budd car...
Western Reserve Historical Society sells off their collection of historic Cleveland industrial artifacts...
Bucks County HS forces historic railroad to be scrapped...

Get used to it. Museums and historical societies do not always act out of reverence to historical properties and artifacts, especially when they fall outside the institution's mission statement.

Hot is right...and it will be proven more and more as more marginal items which have become liabilities (as we all must perform economic triage) need to be removed from our cost-to-maintain collections.......

Don't wait - get your face out there now, stay in touch and build that war chest so that you will be the obvious and ready-to-jump choice when the deaccession happens.

It's your own fault if you haven't adequately positioned yourself to acquire things you might value when they become available. It isn't their responsibility to seek you out.

dave

I have just been informed from a reliable source that the railroad currently has pledges from a number of different sources totaling over $270,000. To quote them:





I have no financial interest in this offer, and offer the above only as "equal time" to other information suggested elsewhere in this thread. This is not an offer to sell securities, investments carrt risks, close cover before striking, yadda yadda yadda.

The clock ticks more loudly with each passing minute.

I have no update that I have heard. Anyone else?

I specifically made a motion to a group with some financial wherewithal and the philanthropic mission statement to see if they could do something towards that final 20%. Unfortunately, between the somewhat dubious and risky nature of the proposal and the fact that the Stewartstown is still technically a for-profit private company, the treasurer said such assistance was prohibited under the by-laws.

I will note that said organization should well have been contacted by the Friends of the Stewartstown (local enough, on speaking terms, etc.) with a more concrete appeal outlining the specifics, which could have negated their assumptions that they couldn't help; as far as I know the other group was not directly contacted by the Friends of the Stewartstown.

From the Stewartstown's Facebook page (not the Friends page, but the official RR page):

Sounds like it's a fait accompli, then. By which I mean, at this point the Estate has two choices and only one makes sense:
1. Donate, forgive, or carry paper on the remaining 20%.
2. scrooge out and scrap the railroad when the nonprofit is this close, gaining the wrath of all. This is just not reasonable and I doubt even a court would permit it without a lot of arguing.

Just to clarify the current situation:

The private investor group being organized by the Stewartstown Railroad Company management will refinance the debt owed to the Hart Estate as a long-term loan.

If these efforts are successful, the Hart Estate will receive its funds and be able to close the Estate and make final distribution to the Estate's heir(s). The debt will then be owed to the investor group, which will need to be repaid. -- Ray