Good Evening, I am interested in why UP would choose the 4014 when at one time the 4023 had undergone repairs and then stored in the UP roundhouse? Despite the years outside and the neglect. Would the 4023 not be in better mechanical condition than any of the other locomotives? Yes the 4023 is up on the hill now. If they could get it up there than they can get it back down.

Robert

I am not familiar with either locomotive, but I would wager a guess that it had to do with 4014 living out its retirement in Pomona, California. It's just simply a more conducive environment for a locomotive to "age" in, compared to Omaha, Nebraska and its wetter, colder, harsher environment.

Given that there hasn't been any news since the original announcement, I suspect that the project is someone's wishful thinking. As was mentioned in the other thread, other Big Boy owners were not contacted despite the announcement saying that the UP had inspected 7 of the remaining 8 locomotives.

I would think that just transporting the one at Pomona would be a huge undertaking. Since the locomotive would have to be completely rebuilt anyways, it seems to me that the one in Cheyenne would be a more logical candidate.

4023, and this is only an opinion, should never have been placed where she was placed. It was a poor use of that particular locomotive, given the preservation history behind it. I studied it last fall, and she appears to be in nearly perfect condition, but then all the Big Boys are restorable, given the appropriate dollars to tear them down. Pomona's 4014 has been greased, cleaned, painted since the day it was rolled into the park. All those locomotives are in excellent shape. Of the seven Big Boys I've visited, I'd say Steamtown's is in the poorest shape, The best is Pomona's, then Forney's, the already mentioned 4023 and this only here because of location, then Frisco's, then Cheyenne's. I've no idea where 4017 (Green Bay's) would fit in this pantheon.

I believe the location in relation to live track has more to do with anything than condition, that is why the Pomona Big Boy was picked, 4023 would be a nightmare to move again and 4004 also would be very problematic, it has also been robbed for parts for 3985 and has been flooded up to and above its axles a few times as . I can assure people it is not wishful thinking either.

Mike Pannell

Well, I hope that in some strange way 4023 becomes the lucky candidate. I agree it should have never been put up on the hill to begin with. They should have towed it to Cheyenne if they could not find a better place for it. Same for the DDA40X.

Wishful thinking on my behalf.

UP 4023

UP E9 B 966- You cant beat a A-B-B-A set of E9's!

UP 6900

Robert

If a Big Boy is rehabilitated in time for May 10, 2019, and used in a reenactment of the "Joining of the Rails", what will be the Central (Southern) Pacific representative?

Oh, Jim, remember Pomona? They have an SP 4-10-2! Totally ridiculous suggestion too, but while you're in Pomona, why not Pomonize?
If an SP choice was to be made, the cab-forward would be the choice, in my opinion.
But stop! Nobody is talking about this! Just hypothetics, and not facts.

Here's a link to the Wasatch Railroad Contractors webpage documenting their excellent cosmetic restoration of #4023 a few years ago.

http://wrrc.us/about/highlighted-projec ... y-no-4023/

While #4023 would be extremely difficult to remove, the work Wasatch did would certainly make restoration easier. Much of the boiler jacketing was removed and replaced with new. While not explicitly stated, it's reasonable to assume that all the asbestos insulation was removed as well. Also, appliances were removed for preservation and replaced with non-functioning replicas.

The following comments are prefaced with these facts:

The studies Wasatch has performed were done between 2006-2009. They were our own studies and have nothing to do with the Union Pacific or the current plans. Most of the facts contained in my following comments remain true today, regardless of how the UP Big Boy project turns out.

The 4023 would actually be very easy to remove from the pedestal in Omaha. However, the method of doing it would be very unorthodox in the railfan world. It is true that ALL of the vitamin A has been removed from the 4023. It is true that Wasatch stabilized the boiler by putting vents in it. This keeps moisture from building and remaining in the boiler. The safety valves, which are dummies, are actually the top vents. The lower vents are wash-out plugs that have been removed and left open.

We also changed all of the oil in the roller bearing housings. The tender bearing boxes were greased and shim blocks were installed between the tender boxes and the suspension system. (The original system was a set of rubber pads that were falling apart. We replaced the rubber pads with steel boxes) The list of things we did to try and help the 4023 goes on and on.

How would we remove it from the pedestal in Omaha? Easy. We would disassemble the locomotive on location to the extent possible. Rods, cab, jacket, pipes.....everything but the frame and boiler. Next, we would secure the running gear as best as possible. Then, we would lift it from the perch, with cranes on the lower shelf of the perch. Then, we would drag the thing less than 600 feet down the hill in the soft dirt to the BNSF and then re-rail or flat car the frame and boiler.

Unorthodox because we generally don't think of dragging something that we plan to restore down a hill in the dirt. The truth is, the dirt that makes up the hill upon which the locomotive rests is the softest top soil you have every seen. It hardly has rock one in it. In fact, the condition of the top soil at the park presented a very sizable issue when the park was built. Did you know that there are almost 200 vertical feet of rock net containers under the foundation of the locomotive. They filled wire mesh crates with hard granite rock and stacked them like bricks in the hole. Then they covered it all. The amount of granite under that locomotive is nearly 100 times the weight of the locomotive! The dirt is very, I mean VERY soft and very friendly. So.....getting 4023 down, easy, but very unorthodox.

4004:

Much has been said about the floods in the 1980's that sank the locomotive to the running boards. In 2008, a group of us climbed under the 4004 with a scope and opened about 1/2 of the driver bearing housings. We drained the oil and inspected the drop plugs (Did you know that roller bearing housings on the Big Boys had drop plugs. If the mechanic saw that a plug had dropped, the indication was that the box had gotten hot, which caused the plug to fail, which drained the box and left a Tell Tale that the box had an issue.) Once we had drained the boxes, we used a scope to inspect the roller bearings in each housing. Though it is rumored that the floods would have "destroyed" the bearings, we found no such issue with any of the bearings. In fact, when the plugs came out, we got about a 1/2-1 cup of very pure, clean water out of each box. The oil that was in the boxes was a very heavy gear oil and in a few, we suspect that they had steam oil in the boxes. The flood has caused ZERO damage to any of the bearings. Yes, we inspected the trailing truck and tender bearings as well as all of the rods that we could easily take the covers off......all fine! This myth of the 4004 being damaged is bunk! I have seen it with my own eyes. I know that I had three people with me and I know that they have seen it too. I challenge anybody to tell me that we are wrong.....I doubt, to this day that anybody has done the research on the 4004 like we have! There is nothing wrong with the 4004!

Getting 4004 out of the park....Easy. I won't share great detail, suffice to say, it is a simple procedure, even easier than it was to get the locomotive in the park. The extrication would take 600 feet of track and three days to complete. It would close one Cheyenne road at Midnight for four hours to cross the road. We figured the cost of moving the 4004 would be about between $100,000.00-$150,000.00.

I struggle to see the wisdom in moving what is a very important display item from California where the people would actually miss it, for the sake of leaving the 4004 in the park where, in Cheyenne, there are more of us that want to see it run and since we have other super power running, why not that one? When you really look at the cost of restoration of a Big Boy, any one of the remaining units will be with-in dollars of another. The major cost factor, the move to get it home.

4004 1,060,402 Miles

4014 1,031, 205 Miles, plus one round trip to and from Cheyenne/California (add 2,000 miles (hard miles)).

4023 829,295 Miles, youngest and possibly best survivor of the batch.

My vote: In this order,

4004, 4023, 4014.

Highest Mileage Big Boy, 4006 in MO. 1,064,625

Only what I have actually seen with my own eyes. Only the way I see it.

Oh, Dave, one more thing; Want to know the UP locomotive that I would restore first and foremost: 833. Don't let anybody tell you what is wrong with her....I have been there and seen that too. I simply don't agree. 833 would be a runner! Can you imagine.....833 on the head end of UTA Front Runner Christmas trains like the 2472 once did......that was cool! Now there is a dream we could all really wrap our heads around!


Respectfully submitted,

The dissassembly of 4023 to move it is fine, you are going to get parts off inspect them and fix/tweak/repaint etc.

Probably the important issue is the newer boiler rules, any engine chosen is going to get boiler jobbed, all flues out, checked tested fixed/replaced, superheaters same all parts looked at fixed/checked, every little piece.

Roller bearings to me is a non-issue, nice if in shape, but replaceable. rusty bearing seats, get out the emery paper, start polishing.
You will probably be more concerned to check for driver condition and frame condition, no cracks etc. These engines were tugging big loads up hills.

This would probably decide the engine with the least work life really.

In a way I'd rather see 4023 left there because of all the work it took to get it there.

John, your efforts are noted, and important, thanks.

Dinwitty, I disagree. I would love to see the 4023 returned to service.


Hi John, I appreciate the expert over view of the 4004 and the 4023. I have long suspected that 4004 was really in fine condition. And 4023 is in fact in the best condition and most desirable restoration candidate in my opinon. So if you don't mind could you tell us the status on the following?

What is the status on the 4005? And the 4006?

What would the 4018 really take besides new piston rods? The last time a saw her in photos she was in bad shape.

I have been to steam town and been up close to 4012 twice. This was in the mid 90's. She is in worse shape now than the 4018 in my opinion.

What is the true status on the 844 and 3985?

What is the chances of 838 steaming? I know she is picked over for the 844. However I have been told there is a major crack in the 838 frame?

Is the 2-10-2 #5511 really in as bad as shape as reported?

And could challenger 3977 be restored if 3985 is in as bad as shape as some would like us to believe?

Since you have looked over the 4023, I would imagine the 6900 was inspected as well? Could the 6900 be restored to operating order without it being a major tear down?

Did the UP Boxcar 9336 get cut up or will your operation be the contractee for the repairs of the UP steam program boxcar?

Lastely I am interested in whether or not the two turbine tenders in Cheyenne will be restored for the BigBoy? I would think the Bigboy would need those two tenders to operate do to the large amount of water she would use. Or does the UP plan on using them for parts and scrapping them as well?

Now as for the oil burning questions. I would think that any Bigboy restored now would be made to burn oil and not coal? So if she becomes a oil burner could the diesel fuel tenders in Cheyenne be setup as fuel tenders for Bigboy?

The consist would be something like this:

BB 4023

Two water tenders

UP Fuel tender

Diesel for dynamic brakes

Passenger Cars

Sorry for all the questions. I am very interested in UP steam and would love to know the real truth regarding the above mentioned locomotives.

Robert

Having been the WRC foreman on the UP 4023 cosmetic job, I concur with John's remarks. Replace 4023 with a nice billboard of it, drag it down the soft hillside, Form 4 and run this locomotive. I believe it is also one of the only viable ones with Elesco Type A's. This locomotive received a lot of work at the end of steam (it shows from the firebox to the running gear), was kept inside the Cheyenne roundhouse until very late, and then WRC bought it more time with our extra stabilization efforts. We cleaned and stabilized the wrapper which would be my major area of concern on a park locomotive - especially a coal burner. We even used the air system as a receiver and distribution points for our air tools during the cosmetic restoration! In many ways it is in better condition than 3985, which as I understand received a similar shopping to 4023 at the end of steam. That locomotive ran for many years of excursion service on that shopping.

The traction motors I looked at on 6900 are birdnested. Vandals stole all the heavy leads (I caught them.) Many power assemblies are missing. It is pretty rough besides the paint, powder, and comb - a true Iowa beauty on the wrong side of the river.

I attended a few volunteer sessions under Lynn Nystrom on 4004. It is certainly not as appealing as 4023, but it is in need of help and very accessible to those charged with the task.

UP 838 is an interesting locomotive. Art Lockman had it towed to Cheyenne the 70's for spare parts. It is a beautiful locomotive, and in many ways the boiler is better than the 844's. The rods are all mixed up between the locomotives and some have been rebored, but that is not an overwhelming problem. I cannot comment about the frame, except if there are problems, there are contemporary as well as traditional solutions that work well.

John and I have spent time under and in the firebox of UP 5511. I Kroiled the locomotive for years, greased the running gear, and aired up and ran the reverser. It is also a very nice locomotive, which does not need excessive work to be returned to serviceable condition. In fact, both UP 5511 and 838 were steamed to heat the roundhouse in Ron Tabke's early career. Both locomotives were pushed through the cleaning rack and painted before it was disassembled and later were very carefully abated under Steve Lee's watch.

On the road, I am much more impressed with an 800 than a 3900, and I can understand why so much effort was spent bringing 844 back. It really makes the 3985 seem like a dumptruck with the Daytons put on crooked.

My views are my own and do not represent UP or WRC.

What a shame the 6900 is such bad shape. The cables and such could be replaced and a GP40-2 scrapped could supply some of the missing electrical parts and diesel engine parts though.

What shape is the E9 B Unit 966 in and could it be converted like the other three and restored to running order?

Robert

This is a little ridiculous. 4023 is not going to be pulled out of the location where she is entombed. The monument is not only two locomotives, but a park of engraved granite panels. Proper removal would require grading and crib work, panel tracks and lots of forgiveness from the powers who run the city. And don't equate the size of a "Centennial" Diesel to the love of operating steam. They are two entirely different measures. If 4023 was to come out, she would likely have to be replaced with another steam loco, and I'd guess it would be the one available, 5511. But it won't happen, not this time, and probably never. It would be far more cost effective to pull 4004 and rebuild her with what is there. 4023 was an unfortunate choice for the Kennefic Park/Gardens, but she's there now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but seven other Big Boys are waiting for attention, a few in rails, ready to move, one already in town.

Oh, another thing- FEF Northerns are gorgeous, but stop waxing about 833 or 815. Union Pacific does a great job or running two beautiful examples of steam motive power, and the only reason to add a 4-8-8-4 is the romance of the "biggest steam locomotive ever". U.P. is not just trying to renovate every steamer available or to convert back to steam power (dang it), to to provide a tangible historic link to the heritage of what makes the railroad great.

I want to see more steam power, and a Big Boy is a logical extension of the viable collection, but use some discipline in figuring out what might happen. If the bill exceeds its worth, nothing will happen.