Market solution? What market? if there was a market at $55,000, then the locomotives would have sold--provided the potential buyer had the need at the moment and had the $$$$ to not only make the purchase but also to relocate and restore said equipment. That hasn't happened. Ergo, no market at the moment--at least for these particular locomotives.

I know first-hand a particular local tourist/dinner train, so successful that the existing F-series locomotives can no longer handle the train lengths necessary to meet the demand. So, did they buy more F's? No; they purchased a GP40. They clearly weren't interested in the Minnesota Zephyr F's. They needed pulling power.

The most likely market for these F's these days, in my mind, would be a new start-up. But the current economy does nor encourage new tourist train enterprises. Will they sell? We can hope so. But I am not holding my breath.

Mike

Not sure where the 55K scrap value came from. Based upon a number of prices I came up with for #1HMS, the price at the scale (rendered) would be somewhere around 42-45K. If one subtracts profit and cost of rendering, the price paid for the complete units by a scrap dealer would be less than the 42-45K range. Not accounted for is the value of any non-ferrous metals present.

On the other hand-suppose one is willing to play at 55K. Right off the bat, the units need to be returned to live rail. The broker offering makes reference to thin flanges, which need to be dealt with. Then, the safety appliances need to be either all present and/or working. Now, one can try to set up transportation.

BTW, it is assumed that all major components and subsystems not otherwise mentioned are in useable conditions.

Long and the short of it is this-appears that approx. 75K per unit is the amount needed to bring the things 'home.'

DPK

$45K. $55K. $75K. The numbers are meaningless without a potential buyer So where does the seller find a buyer in the short time remaining, if no one has stepped forward up to this point. Even if the seller were to offer the locomotives for donation (unlikely), is there any individual or organization out there with the need and the money to relocate the locomotives (acquiring locomotives or cars just for the sake of acquiring them is not a good business model)? I'm bet that at least one organization--and perhaps many organizations--have made that offer. The buyer still has the locomotives. So he obviously wants money out of them, not a tax write-off.

in the grand scheme of things $55K is not much money. It just takes a big bank account or ability to take out a loan or otherwise find funding in short order. All that is needed is the right person with the will--and the need. There's that nasty word again. Need.

Mike

I don’t think it is accurate to conclude that there is no market for the locomotives. The key to selling them is to make the effort to reach the market, and price the locomotives for that market. It takes time, and time is short, so the price has to match that distress in available time. Even if you could reach the entire market today, it would take time for the market to react.

So the deciding question is whether there is time to find a willing buyer at a price higher than scrap. Say the scrap value (as has been mentioned) is $42-45,000 rendered and delivered to the scale per locomotive. I don’t know what the cost of rendering and delivery would be, but it seems to me that it would include a track hoe with operator, trucking to deliver and return the track hoe, and the cost of trucking to the scrap to the yard. It might also require a Bobcat and operator/helper to sort and separate the scrap as it is torn off the locomotive. I am not sure how “rendered” is completely defined, but unless the metal is completely sorted and separated, the price quoted might be reduced. Overall, it would not surprise me if the net return to the owner were only $15,000.

More information could establish the exact amount, but say it is only $15,000. You have to also calculate that the owner says he does not want to scrap the locomotives. That indicates to me that he might be willing to sell for less than the scrap value just so he does not have to scrap the locomotives. So there is a question of the value to the seller for not having to scrap the locomotives. Say that value is $5000 each.

That leaves a sale price of $10,000 per locomotive. So how would the market react if all of the known market were made aware tomorrow that two operating F7 locomotives were for sale for $20,000 for both or $10,000 for one?

I would not be surprised if the city would allow some further extension of time if a buyer were found in 30 days, but needed another 2-3 weeks to move the one locomotive on city land. They may not need the land until the spring flooding.

"As is, where is, must be moved in 30 days or storage fees of $100 a day apply....."

I hate to say this, but probably not that much differently. I can count the parties that would presumably be in a position to act this quickly and confidently on such a basis (that we know of, disregarding someone completely out of nowhere) on the fingers of one hand, and that includes Larry's Truck & Electric, Jerry Jacobsen, the SL&RG/Saratoga & North Creek/IC Pullman/etc guys, the Grand Canyon RR, and maybe the Greenbrier Express project--and of those, I can see only one maybe actually needing a pair of F7A's.....

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m pretty sure they will be scrapped. I am just trying to find out where the edges are to the deal. It is easy for a seller to say he knows the market, the likely buyers, and knows they don’t want an F7 at this time. I am not a professional seller, but I have sold enough weird things to know that the market has a way of producing buyers who come right out of left field and buy almost anything. It does usually take time though. I have also noticed that selling something unique does not seem to depend on price, as one would expect. It depends mostly on reaching the entire market, which for practical purposes, is almost infinite.

And to find the edges to this deal, I ask some questions here as to scrap value and re-sale value because I expect people here might have the answers. If I were the seller, I would not just be focused on wanting to sell the engines because I do not want to scrap them. I would also not want to scrap them when I could have gotten three times more by selling them outright.

There is always lament on this forum when a collectable historical piece is scrapped. But it is always after the fact, and we are left only with “what if.” I think this case is interesting because we see it coming, and there is still time left. So, we are able to watch this play out and learn more about the process of this troubling sort of loss, and how to prevent it in the future, if not even prevent it in this specific case.

What good would it do to have a universal listing of equipment for sale, if sellers assume (or are told by associates) ahead of time that there is no market?

Fresh news: the F-unit that had been on city property has been moved by the city back to property owned by Mr. Paradeau:

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... locomotive

Thing I don't understand is why is Mr. Paradeau so obsessed with getting money back from his train he does not simply donate the F-units to, say, the Minnesota Transportation Museum. The only F-unit they have is inoperable because there is no engine in it, and the Zephyr F-units would be a good addition to MTM in the long run because they are operable though to be sure in the short term extensive work would be needed on them before that would happen.

I think the city did the right thing to move the F7 back to the owner's property. It puts the ball back into the owner's court by taking the city out of the scrapping scenario, so they cannot be blamed for causing duress that called for scrapping as the last resort.

The owner can complain that he had to pay $10,000 for the move he feels he did not need, but at least the city is financing the cost by putting it on the owner's property tax.

So, as I understand it, both F7s are on the owner's property and the rest of the train is stored according to some arrangement. Assuming that the owner does not want to scrap any of the equipment, does this mean that he will now proceed with selling the equipment for reuse?

Had a chat with a MTM member, they have looked at the locomotives, they are totally shot, no or poor maintenance for many years, the wiring is shot, many functions in the control systems have been disabled/jumpered around.

His comment was if they showed up at the gate, he might not unlock it.

The empty shell of a GN F they have been working on might be a easier project.

The owner is apparently deep in hock to the bank which is why the price is so high.

Some more news: battery theft. Is there any re-sale value in a used battery? I'm puzzled.

"...an employee had discovered the battery compartments on the two locomotives had been cut open and the batteries were missing from one of them.

"Each of the four missing batteries weighs about 350 pounds and costs $400, according to a Stillwater police report. The damage caused by vandals opening the battery compartments is estimated at $2,000."

http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... police-say

A quick check around my area online shows any number of scrap yards--excuse me, "recycling facilities"--ready and willing to buy lead-acid batteries. A couple cite minimum weights to deal, such as 100 or 1,000 pounds.

Personally, having wrestled with locomotive batteries in EMD E8's, I'm impressed by any thieves' ability to pull off this audacious theft.... was there a forklift on the property that could have been appropriated?

I am involved in selling a truck load of used batteries of all types. This includes 5 different types of railroad batteries and about 20,000# total. The scrap value of lead batteries is 26 cents a pound right now. A little less if the buyer has to send his truck to pick up the load or a little more if the seller delivers to the scrapper.That equates to about $104.00 per 400 # battery. A lot of work but enough to attract many a thief.

I'd say it's doable to move them with 2 people, 3 would be better. I've pulled batteries out of the rear carbody of a FL-9 by making scaffolding and slides out of 2x6's for the batteries to rest and slide around on to get them out the rear door. No way to get a forklift to do that job. Not a fun job either but doable and if you don't believe me Howard P could back me up. If these batteries on the F7's were under the car body then it would be easier than what I dealt with.

If they were to be moved in a consist, they would have to pass the needed inspections plus have alignment control couplers installed as they would be hauled dead behind the train's lead locomotives.

"Had a chat with a MTM member, they have looked at the locomotives, they are totally shot, no or poor maintenance for many years, the wiring is shot, many functions in the control systems have been disabled/jumpered around.

His comment was if they showed up at the gate, he might not unlock it.

The empty shell of a GN F they have been working on might be a easier project.

The owner is apparently deep in hock to the bank which is why the price is so high."

And I if I had the need for, and capacity to purchase F units- these have 645 prime movers and GP38 stands, an extra 300HP and most importantly, blue cards.

http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds ... hp?id=7284