I will say it once and I will say it again most people are looking for a ride on a choo choo and don't know jack $#!+ about what they are riding. I was asked weather a U23B was a steam locomotive. I was also onced asked to turn on the AC on a vintage CN heavyweight, yes I know some of them had ice cooling but that is not what the guy meant. I would hazard a guess that if you put a smoke stack on a F40 and and hauled Amcans only the foamer would complain and we all know how much money they make up when it comes to income other people would enjoy the historic choo choo ride and the AC. I also hear well it's our job to teach them about how the equipment is historic, but tell me after someone visits your organization will they even be able to tell me how the train stays on the track, never mind what they rode in?

Then it seems like either you guys aren't doing your job, or what you claim is missing isn't the job you are doing (supposed to be doing?). What is the premise?

dave

Some places, steam doesn't matter--Grand Canyon, Verde Canyon, etc. Others, it's a critical part of their "brand"--Durango & Silverton, Strasburg, EBT, Valley RR, etc.

There are many places that are actually able to compare passenger loadings of steam versus diesel, among them the Wilmington & Western and the Mt. Washington Cog Railway. Many years ago, I was told by the then-director of the W&W that passenger loadings dropped 50% when the SW1 or S2 had to sub for 98 or 3. Now they openly plan for steam or diesel events, so I wonder what it looks like now. Then we have places like the Cuyahoga Valley, which hasn't had steam for ages except for a special visit or two, and the Western Md. Scenic RR, which runs steam and diesel trains depending on circumstances, but heavily advertises steam as their attraction.

It's easy to accuse tourists and "daisy pickers" of not caring what hauls them, but the truth is far more complex. What would happen if Strasburg tried to put 8618 on one of its two summer trains? Probably, crowds passing up the diesel trains for the steamers, even if there were a price difference in favor of diesel.

I have to throw my $.02 in on this. If you're gonna run a mainline excursion and you don't want more headache than its worth use Amfleets, operate out of a car base (to avoid deadhead charges), and give them an expierience that they are wanting, not necessarily what you (or other Railfans want). I ran the trip that Mr Gears references on the first page and his less than stellar expierience was due to us having to scrounge cars at te last minute and trying to save money doing so. Not only did Septa rape us on the insurance (had to insure for $800,000 per car) but filling them to capacity because we didn't inspect the cars first probably cost us about 300 riders in our Philly market. Our second trip was all Amtrak and First Class and our only complaint was that the veggie sandwich we offered only had vegetables on it. (As opposed to??). Not bad for a 760 person excursion I think.

Daisy pickers and casual train enthusiasts are where the money is on the mainline trips. I can guarantee that 90% (or more) of our coach passengers are there to have a scenic day out, get a train ride, and enjoy the overall expierience. Where are the railfans? They're trackside and if you put a steamer and/or a vintage consist on your train, all the railfans will be trackside as it now seems more important to get pictures of said train than to ride it, not to mention its cheaper. If your goal is to make a small profit on a mainline excursion, forget steam and forget vintage car upgrades. Those things have their place, don't get me wrong, but the only thing accomplished will be turning wealthy people poor.

Russ

PS We're planning the 2013 excursion out of Philly for those interested. Gonna be some new rare mileage too. Especially for the Reading fans.

Good advice.

And you've just shut down most of the possibilities nationwide. How many Amtrak or commuter car bases are there nationwide? Further, exactly how many "experiences" can you give the public out of "car bases" that 1) are physically/legally possible with a passenger train and 2) they can't experience every day on Amtrak or commuter runs? Can't do the New River Gorge..... Trips to the Horse Shoe Curve or the like become marathons.....

R. Swinnerton's comments and approach to excursions are OK, and in spirit go back to early excursions by outfits like the Locomotive & Railway Historical Society of the 1930s. What did they do? Chartered idle locomotives and coaches for trips out of Boston and Philadelphia. That's where the membership was back then. Of course, the power and equipment wasn't too unusual then, even if it was E-6s Atlantics and New Haven 4-6-2s--that's what was running at the time!

http://rlhs.org/

These guys would have been disappointed with a trip to Mount Union to observe the EBT. That road went through a modernization program starting around 1910 that resulted in all new locomotives and steel freight cars. In short, for the narrow-gauge fans in that crowd, the EBT in 1934 would have been too modern!!

Link to a parallel thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34312