4501 Update 12-31-12

filmteknik · **Posted:** Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:19 pm

Since this debate is percolating nicely let's have another: What was the deal with the red cab roof? Some deny SR ever painted passenger power that way. Morgan's book describes...

"...the Christmas-tree trappings of SR's standard passenger-power dress: Virginia (some said apple) green accented by gold lettering, numbers, and stripes; silvered running boards, cylinder heads, and wheel tires and rims; a brick-red cab roof; and miscellaneous other tinsel too diverse to tabulate."

It doesn't seem like Merriman, Claytor, and Purdie, etc. made that up outta thin air.

Steve

10stewi · **Posted:** Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:08 pm

With the talk of returning the Dooley bonnet (a.k.a. the smoke deflector) and the correct Andrews tender trucks, could we also see the dog house return to the tender? I would very much like to see at least one Southern Railway steamer with the dog house back on!

David Notarius · **Posted:** Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:02 pm

Hi guys, this may be slightly of topic, but while we are talking about the 4501, what are the plans or news for her stable-mates the TVRM's other K&T 2-8-2 and the CNR 4-6-2? I know there was some talk about returning to service and "Southern-ing" both of them. Have fun - David Notarius, London UK, ex New Hope Pa.

SR6900 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:18 pm

K&T 10 was Southernized for a time and a more recent restoration saw it being transformed into an NC&StL engine, which it's more akin to than a Southern prototype. That restoration ceased over a decade ago, with attention being devoted to 630. Personally (even as more of a Southern guy), I'd love to see it as an NC&StL engine, it's one of the major railroads that was here in Chattanooga, yet somewhat forgotten about.

5288 has been restored... the stoker at least and will soon be fully mounted on the 4501.

jasonsobczynski · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:56 am

In my research it would seem that even back in the age of steam there was myth, lore and legend. Locomotives in preservation have had their cab roofs sanded down revealing ever darker/deeper shades of red. Almost as though the color was "matched" each time the cab was repainted. There is a railroad in the northeast which insists on painting their cab roofs and tender bunker in "x o rust" rusty metal primer (which is not paint and needs a top coat) which is a pinkish brown color. Why? Because they believe that is the color the reading used...... they like the reading.
Anywho, I have it in writing that railroads (none listed in particular) used "red lead primer" on cab roofs and in bunkers. Why? The durability of that primer, which could act as a paint on it's own, is rather impressive and because there was no need to invest in good paint on a part of the locomotive that doesn't really get cleaned.

Cheers, Jason

Kevin Gilliam · **Joined:** Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm **Posts:** 292

Jeff Lisowski wrote:

filmteknik wrote:

Since this debate is percolating nicely let's have another: What was the deal with the red cab roof? Some deny SR ever painted passenger power that way. Morgan's book describes...

That's a good question but hard to answer.

Not every Southern shop did things the same.

CNO&TP and AGS divisions did apparently have some cab roofs red, but this was not a standard.

Most Southern cab roofs were green or black, I have read some reports that even the Elesco feedwater heaters were black on some PS-4s.

The red cab roof on 4501 was probably a personal choice not one out of Southern paint history.

That's pretty much it. Look hard enough on Southern and you could find a prototype for ANYTHING. Typical Southern practice? No. It DOES look better red though. Interestingly enough though, I believe the ET&WNC ten-wheelers (which were based off the SR-based paint scheme) DID have a red cab roofs. Just to add fire to the controversy.
Kevin

Newriver400 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:55 pm

I second that emotion...

filmteknik wrote:

Green & gold please.

1) SR freight black is already represented by 630 and 401.

2) She wore green & gold under SR auspices so any argument that it is not authentic is bunk.

3) Unless someone creates a PS4 via kitbashing (not anytime soon) there will never be another chance for SR passenger livery.

4) She wore those colors under Claytor, Purdie, Bistline, and Merriman, men who pined for the SR steam of their youth. They chose green & gold and I think they chose well.

5) "Never mind that a Southern freight engine had never before worn green paint. Label 4501's color unique or unprecedented, but not unauthentic. No. 4501 wore green with the corporate blessing of the Southern. That was good enough for me. She had a role to play in SR territory -- a role 1450 miles long -- and she could no more fulfill it in black than a zebra can be a zebra without his stripes. "-- David P. Morgan, Locomotive 4501 p.47.

6) Nostalgia for the old steam program is now more likely than those who knew SR steam prior to 1953.

7) This is the most important reason. If for some unknown reason, a 2-8-2 had been assigned to hold down a regular passenger assignment, SR would have painted her green and gold. One presumes that is why she wore green & gold in the steam program.

Steve

Newriver400 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:23 pm

Gary,

Excellent suggestion. I have made this suggestion in passing based on the fact that 4-8-2 1454 was painted this way very late, ca. 1949-50. No one seems to show much interest...

I have B&W prints given to me by Shelby Lowe before he passed. He took the photos of 1454 at North Avenue roundhouse after arranging for the engine to be posed in good light after servicing from its inbound run from Spencer/Charlotte/Greenville. You could get things like that done if you were a chief clerk (he was). Though he took several shots, only one or two do not have wiper on the running board smiling (Shelby said he not get off the running boards, but he would gladly smile for the camera). I'll have to see if I can find them. Shelby was notified by phone that the engine had headed south on some train (can't remember which one) and that it was painted black! It was otherwise an all passenger paint job with stripes, SOUTHERN on the tender, and so forth.

I'll try to remember and post a pic when I get home and scan one.

Best,
Mike

Gary Gray wrote:

I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested this on the paint scheme. Why not paint her in pre-1926 passenger colors. For those of you unfamiliar with Southern paint schemes, the lettering & striping would be essentially the same as the green & gold, but on a black locomotive. Still passenger colors, but think steam version of the "Tuxedo" F-units. Given that 4501 will be operating primarily with a red passenger train, I think that would work much better than green. There is a historical precedent for "freight hogs" in these colors, as there are photos of some switchers & smallers engines in this combination. It would also define another era in 4501's history, having another unique but authentic paint scheme for her time in the 21st Century Steam program

filmteknik · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:58 am

Thanks; I have them all in print (as well as the all-issues DVD) but not well organized so that was a good excuse to see how long they'd take to find. I think I did pretty well.

Steve

Kevin Gilliam · **Joined:** Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:28 pm **Posts:** 292

John D wrote:

Understanding that this is an NS/TVRM decision....wonder what Andy Fletcher could conceptualize/illustrate?

As long as it isn't black with a tuscan stripe down the middle, I'll be ok with whatever they pick out! Actually, as long as it's steaming, I'd be ok with even that idea....but in the market for a can of black gloss paint and a check to make it right.

Either way, she'll look good. I'd suggest expecting something like this...

Attachment:

Farewell to the First Lady of Steam.jpg [ 280.25 KiB | Viewed 6731 times ]

This was it. The last hurrah. With the clock ticking, Southern 4501 doubleheaded with the TVRM 610 on an excursion from Chattanooga to LaFayette, GA. The runbys at Chickamauga on the way back were the only time to get photos of the '01 by herself. The next day, without hardly any fanfare (or publicity), she would operate the TVRM locals, then enter into a long slumber. The awakening has now been started. Chickamauga, GA. September 19, 1998.
Kevin

Txhighballer · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:49 am **Posts:** 773

To me, either black or green, she wore them both proudly. Now to a more technical question...with the addition of the feedwater heater and stoker, have you made a determination of how much of a gain in horsepower and tractive effort you have gained? I would think you will have not added a great deal of weight to affect her tractive effort, but I'm thinking you should see a noticable gain in horsepower, right where you need it around the 40 MPH mark.

filmteknik · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:10 am

I'll be curious what the experts say. I don't think the stoker changes anything although if one nitpicks, it is a small consumer of steam. The feedwater heater should add a bit to the effective capacity of the boiler to make steam but whether it is noticeable or not is the question. It certainly makes it more efficient and extends water range.

Steve

Dave · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:41 am

If the limiting factor was the fireman's ability to keep coal on the grate, the stoker could make a lot of difference. Anybody ever fired 4501 can comment?

feedwater heaters are more efficient than injectors, so while we will probably see a gain in thermal efficiency, I don't know if it will be reflected in available power at the wheels or simply better coal mileage.

When Nigel Day added a feedwater heater and modern front end to the Cog engine, he managed to halve the fuel consumption. Order your copy of Red Devil.

dave

Frisco1522 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:09 am

If God had intended for these engines to be green, they would have been born green.
Do her authentically and be done with it.

filmteknik · **Posted:** Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:47 pm

Opinions one way or the other are fine but as I've said, it's wrong to call it inauthentic when it was painted green under SR auspices and lease or whatever the legal arrangement was. Is there a cut off date for authenticity? She was in SR passenger service so they painted her in SR passenger colors.

Steve