It is currently Fri May 23, 2025 7:22 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:50 pm 

Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:50 pm
Posts: 162
Since many steam experts are here I thought someone could add information to this photo?
Thanks


Attachments:
Stack exhaust2.jpg
Stack exhaust2.jpg [ 273.53 KiB | Viewed 10051 times ]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Posts: 2563
Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Two possibilities, as I see it:

Some form of a blower, which is usually located inside the smokebox and is designed to have the steam jet fill the stack lower extension opening ("petticoat pipe") completely, while below the top opening of the stack.

Or, an experimental (?) shop-made form of smoke lifter nozzle.

I would tend to guess the second item. WM's Hagerstown Shop was known to make mods to both steam and diesel power.

Howard P.

_________________
"I'm a railroad man, not a prophet."


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:36 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3971
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I'm inclined to think it's a blower arrangement of some sort, and it wasn't unique to the WM. There is a well known photo around of the first PRR K4s, with a similar steam pattern at the stack.

Look what turned up on YouTube, and check out the number at 1:06:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWPUfC8Hc00

Some other footage in the area; I live in the wrong time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR00wHbAsd0

WM's M-2 4-6-6-4s were handsome locomotives, but I understand they were something of a disappointment, reportedly hard riding and not quite as capable as the big Decapods they were supposed to replace. Built by Baldwin in 1940 and 1941, I always thought they resembled in a way the B&O's EM-1 2-8-8-4s that would follow within the next few years.

Some of the distinctive features of the M-2s included the "rock knocker" plow pilot, the square smokebox door, the vestibuled cab (more typical of Canadian practice), Baldwin disc drivers, and plenty of roller bearings, including a type used by Baldwin on this and some other engines on the leading truck.

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1203s.jpg

From Richard Leonard's collection:

http://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/wm1210.htm

And from Northeast Rails:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1206s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1204sa.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1205s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/wm1212s.jpg

EDIT: found a copy of that K4s photo:

http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/photos ... 20800x.jpg

Whooee!! Can you imagine the fuss and feathers we'd get if we were to rebuild one of the two existing K4s to look like this, with the wooden pilot, box headlight, extended piston rods, and low tender (borrowed off E6s No. 460)? But wouldn't she be pretty with all that striping Pennsy used to use?


Last edited by J3a-614 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:27 pm
Posts: 552
Location: Milford,Mass
Hi Howard
First I do agree with you , it is some sort of experminal stack , also as and experminal , could have been poor mans elephant ears , to blow smoke out of engineer's way ??? Just a guess???????????? Pat


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:03 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
Posts: 1334
Location: South Carolina
Interesting- the first photo that J3a-614 posted and the Baldwin builder's photo in "Steam's Finest Hour" show that these engines were originally built with twin stacks. The photo at the top of the thread shows the "experimental stack" is a single unit.

Does anyone know if all the WM 4-6-6-4's were similarly modified?

My bet is the ring of steam jets served as a "smoke lifter" rather than a blower. (Like Pat says- "poor man's" elephant ears.) Their location wouldn't induce much, if any, draft in the stack, but they would propel the exhaust upward somewhat, helping to blow it clear of the boiler and cab.

_________________
Hugh Odom
The Ultimate Steam Page
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 220
Location: Whitefield, ME
Quote:
WM's M-2 4-6-6-4s were handsome locomotives, but I understand they were something of a disappointment, reportedly hard riding and not quite as capable as the big Decapods they were supposed to replace. Built by Baldwin in 1940 and 1941, I always thought they resembled in a way the B&O's EM-1 2-8-8-4s that would follow within the next few years.


This lackluster performance was due to incredibly small and oddly placed exhaust nozzles. Just kidding... It does appear to be a blower of sorts. Perhaps by moving the blower to the top of the stack they thought they would get better draughting as a result.

Stephen


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:12 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:50 pm
Posts: 154
Location: MD
Some of the WM's K2's were equipped with this "blower" arrangement as well. From what I can tell they were added to the remaining coal burning K2's when the rest were converted to oil. Sorry for the so-so quality pic, but it was the best I had showing the arrangement that I already had on my computer. I know I have a better one in print I may try to dig out.

Attachment:
SCAN0032 - Copy.jpg
SCAN0032 - Copy.jpg [ 91.96 KiB | Viewed 9907 times ]


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:46 pm 

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 1094
Location: Warszawa, Polska
Any possibility they are exhausts from a lubricator or other appliances? 6167 has a couple of small pipes along the stack, one an exhaust for the mechanical lubricator, the other exhausts from oil skimmers installed on the feed water heater

_________________
CNR 6167 in Guelph, ON or "How NOT To Restore A Steam Locomotive"


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:53 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
you could never induce serious draft like that, the engines would already have blowers for that. I can't think of the elephant ear use much before the superpower steam era. It seems to be a late invention, NKP experimented with versions on their hudsons and came out with a large bladed one final.
Smoke lifting sounds most practical, but with large power engines you get plenty of lift, (note big boys had them too) but why waste the steam when you need it for power...erm, well, hence the elephant ears I presume.
many lubricators were mechanical, but whatever small devices needed exhausting looks like it would be more wise to chute it up with the stack talk.

Probably when the engines get around stations, populated areas you kick the lifters on, or whenever needed.


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:44 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3971
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Quote:
I'll be honest, I've never been a fan of Pennsy steam, never liked their appearance, but hot damn that K4 is sharp!

It almost has a European quality to it.


Jeff, I suspect part of that "European" quality is that trim, clean appearance, including straight running boards. Those running boards are straight because this big 4-6-2 lacks power reverse. Yes, she's reversed and cut-off manually! Imagine that at speed with this big thing, especially after watching what happened with the Blue Peter in 1994.

And let's not forget the fireman; she's hand-fired, too, and has 70 square feet of grate area to feed. Imagine keeping that engine hot with 11 cars on the Middle Division, which is what this locomotive was designed to do in this configuration.

I wonder if any veterans of hand-firing the 4501 would be willing to take the challenge? The 4501 should be a good warm up for this one, the '01 has a grate area of 56 square feet. . .

Hand firing this K4s would be a good way to keep fit. Bet you didn't see any chubby firemen on the Pennsy back then, or on any other road then for that matter. . .


Last edited by J3a-614 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:45 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 1199
Location: Leicester, MA.
Howard P. wrote:
Two possibilities, as I see it:

Some form of a blower, which is usually located inside the smokebox and is designed to have the steam jet fill the stack lower extension opening ("petticoat pipe") completely, while below the top opening of the stack.

Or, an experimental (?) shop-made form of smoke lifter nozzle.

I would tend to guess the second item. WM's Hagerstown Shop was known to make mods to both steam and diesel power.

Howard P.

Spot on Howard. I knew I had read of something similar in my book on the Merchant Navy-class of 4-6-2s in the UK. Before the class was modified with smoke deflectors alongside the casing of the engine (prior to the BR-era rebuild) Oliver Bullied had designed a similar device for use on the class. One of the first ten was supposedly modified with a similar device in an attempt to prevent smoke drift due to the arrangement of the blast pipe and chimney. Reportedly, the deviced did not work well, and wasn't replicated. I'll have to go back and dig out my copy of The Southern Pacifics when I have a chance so I can check.

_________________
Dylan M. Lambert
https://www.facebook.com/LambertLocomotive/


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:15 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
Posts: 2477
.


Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Tue Aug 06, 2024 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:58 am
Posts: 55
Location: South Jersey
daylight4449 wrote:
I knew I had read of something similar in my book on the Merchant Navy-class of 4-6-2s in the UK. Before the class was modified with smoke deflectors alongside the casing of the engine (prior to the BR-era rebuild) Oliver Bullied had designed a similar device for use on the class. One of the first ten was supposedly modified with a similar device in an attempt to prevent smoke drift due to the arrangement of the blast pipe and chimney......


You can see the Merchant Navies smoke trailing over the Cathedrals Express at 1:18 in video. It appears there is a low pressure area or other aerodynamic disturbance in front of the chimney pulling the exhaust forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgyLJUlOKBk

_________________
Old member,new screen name due to some glitch in the works
Steam professional since 1975
Former block operator-PRSL


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:43 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:16 pm
Posts: 45
An interesting topic, if a bit of "trivia". I have noticed this outside smoke lifter ring in many pictures of (gorgeous) Western Maryland steam power in later years.

It would be interesting to know why the WM decided to apply this device seemingly wholesale to their power towards the end of the steam era.

-Erich


Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of steam locomotive stack
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:02 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:12 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Boulder, CO
Are you sure those aren't water jets to quinch hot cinders and prevent trackside fires?

Mike


Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


 Who is online

Users browsing this forum: B&Ofan5300, Google [Bot] and 141 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: