Photos like the one linked below are very common, but does anyone have old photos of this engine when it actually hauled freight for Southern Railway? To which roundhouse was it assigned?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=4671
ryarger@rypn.org

David Morgan's book has a photograph of the 4501 taken at Bull's Gap, Tennessee in 1912.That was back when she had a high mounted headlamp and large pilot. According to Morgan's information, it is believed that the 3501 was originally placed on the Washington Division. It later served on the Birmingham and CNO&TP Divisions. It eventually was based out of Princeton, Indiana.

awalker2002@comcast.net

The current issue of TIES, published by the Southern Railway Historical Association, features a detailed article on the Southern Ms series Mikados and includes a couple of pictures of 4501 while operating as Kentucky & Tennessee #12. There are also a number of photos of sister engines in service on the Southern. According to the article, in its later years, the 4501 was assigned to Princeton, Indiana. The SRHA has run an excellent series of articles by Dale Roberts and Ed King covering Southern steam in TIES Magazine; back issues are available from the Association.

Southern Railway Historical Association
AMaples@aol.com

> Photos like the one linked below are very
> common, but does anyone have old photos of
> this engine when it actually hauled freight
> for Southern Railway? To which roundhouse
> was it assigned?

Like Alan said, only three photos of 4501 on the Southern have surfaced to my knowledge. The Bull's Gap photo he mentioned, and some family snapshots of "Daddy" Lee, 4501's regular engineer during part of the time it was stationed at Princeton, IN, published in Morgan's book.

If anyone else has published others, I haven't seen them.

According to Shelby Lowe's book the original assignment for the Ms Class (4501-4570) was the Washington Division. The Bull's Gap photo would suggest that 4501 was transferred over there pretty quickly if the date is correct, or perhaps actually started service there.

Lots of writers have speculated where 4501 was assigned and when. Much of that speculation is contradictory. (You can find it in Morgan's book "Locomotive 4501, and Shelby Lowe's book on the Southern.)

Personally, I'd guess it was delivered from Baldwin to the Washington Division, and run in there before being assigned to Bull's Gap. From there it sounds like it spent some time in the 1920s on the CNO&TP, then the Birmingham Division, then the St. Louis Division (where "Daddy" Lee enters the story, and where it acquired those awful handrails you see in K&T photos), then back to the CNO&TP toward the end of steam (where 4501 acquired the "Dooley Duct" it wore on the K&T). Lee claimed that 4501's whistle was manufactured in Asheville, so it may also have been assigned there for a while, as well, and it could have been assigned to almost anywhere else on the system except Meridian and New Orleans.

JAC

Speaking of "Daddy" Lee, back a couple of years ago I had the pleasure of meeting his grandchildren. I was doing some work in the railyard and they happened to ask if the locomotive was there and if they might be able to see it. I showed them where the locomotive was and stayed with the locomotive while they looked about it. They appreciated the opportunity to see the locomotive and the knowledge that it is being looked after by its caretakers.

awalker2002@comcast.net

Because 4501 was never equiped with a stoker it would have been banned from fast or heavy freight or passenger service by no later than April 15, 1944 by the ICC stoker law. This would have limited the engine to local, branchline, work train, and yard service regardless of where it is assigned. It is interesting to speculate why Southern would have taken a locomotive of this capacity out of the mainline pool even if they anticipated using it most of the time on branchlines. Was there a problem that they felt made it unsuitable for heavy fast service? Did they never expected to run it anywhere but on the branch it was assigned to? Were other MS-1 class engines so equiped? I suspect it was late enough in steam that the railroad just did not want to spend money putting a stoker on the engine when the fireman was going to be paid anyway. Could the fact that the engine was not equiped with a stoker and could not used on the mainline be the reason it was taken off the roster so early? Unfortunately I do not know enough about Southern Railway steam practices to answer any of these questions.

jhbohon@yahoo.com

What I think but do not know for certain, is that 4501 may well have been in local freight service at the time that she was retired. That would cetainly explain why she was not re-equipped with a stoker. I'd like to look at the information concerning the other locomotives of the 4500 series.

My suspicion is that with the Southern's early interest in diesel electric locomotives, their intention may have been to bump steam locomotives from the premier passenger assignments and heavy freight assignments on down. By following such a program of reassigning locomotives bumped by new diesels, you would naturally see the early, systematic removal of the older or smaller locomotives except where weight and size restrictions were an issue. This is just my own opinion. I am working on other projects and do not presently have the time to look into it further now.

That said, it would be understandible that an older locomotive like the 4501 would be in the lower portion of the list and would have been replaced much sooner than say a Ms-4 built in the 1920's on mainline assignments. That in turn would allow an older 4500 class locomotive to replace older types such as the G class, so long as there are no weight restictions to consider. As John suggests, basically it comes down to money. Why waste money on equipping an older steam locomotive with a stoker when you're dieselizing and in all probability the steam locomotive in question isn't going to be on the property in three years? As John points out, the ICC Stoker Law came about in 1944. Remember that by 1948, the 4501 was on the dead line, awaiting scrapping or resale having been displaced by new diesel electric units.

In the end, I think that it was a combination of company practices, economics and corporate image. Remember that the Southern was promoting an image of modernization and innovation. The Southern management at the time viewed steam locomotives as "old" technology not in line with a modern railroad. My belief is that that view of management, technological advancements in diesel electric locomotive technology and economics were behind the drive to re-equip the railroad with a fleet of all diesel electric locomotives as quickly as they did.

awalker2002@comcast.net

> Because 4501 was never equiped with a stoker
> it would have been banned from fast or heavy
> freight or passenger service by no later
> than April 15, 1944 by the ICC stoker law.
> This would have limited the engine to local,
> branchline, work train, and yard service
> regardless of where it is assigned. It is
> interesting to speculate why Southern would
> have taken a locomotive of this capacity out
> of the mainline pool even if they
> anticipated using it most of the time on
> branchlines. Was there a problem that they
> felt made it unsuitable for heavy fast
> service? Did they never expected to run it
> anywhere but on the branch it was assigned
> to? Were other MS-1 class engines so
> equiped? I suspect it was late enough in
> steam that the railroad just did not want to
> spend money putting a stoker on the engine
> when the fireman was going to be paid
> anyway. Could the fact that the engine was
> not equiped with a stoker and could not used
> on the mainline be the reason it was taken
> off the roster so early? Unfortunately I do
> not know enough about Southern Railway steam
> practices to answer any of these questions.

By 1944, I doubt anyone was adding stokers. Southern had hundreds of light 2-8-2s that had been equipped with them, and over 150 heavy Mikes. And I would guess that, in the middle of WWII, the stoker law probably was observed in the breach on a regular basis.

A letter to DPM from one of "Daddy" Lee's sons indicates that 4501 was in local service in Princeton (probably "Daddy" had enough seniority to hold a cushy run). Unfortunately the letter is just imprecise enough to be certain if 4501 was there until Lee's death in 1945 - there's talk of his whistle and eagle on the engine he retired from, but 4501 could have been gone by then and those items transferred to another locomotive.

If 4501 was assigned to Lee until he died, then it was at Princeton until at least June, 1945.

Morgan says that in 1948 4501 was "stored in Princeton, Indiana." In the next paragraph he says that the K&T master mechanic looked over three engines for sale, picked 4501, and that "she went DOWN to Stearns under her own power" (my emphasis)." I've always assumed that Morgan mistyped, and that 4501 was in the dead line at Ferguson (Somerset, KY) - it never made sense to me, as Somerset was only 35 miles away. Maybe the K&T wanted a locomotive that wasn't beat to death on the Rathole, and so avoided Ferguson. It's all speculation, unfortunately.

JAC

SteamCentral

It may seem odd to resurrect an old thread such as this one but the revitalization of 4501 has also lead to the rediscovery of some old records.

This is the last monthly report filed for 4501 prior to its sale to the K&T Railroad. Please note the location - Princeton, IN. DPM was right, sorry JAC!

More later.

A little OT but I would love to see pictures of 401 in service on the Southern.

Dave H.

What is the meaning of the footnote marks next to the questions (* # ? ) ?

Does this document survive because it went with the engine to the K&T? On pgs. 22 & 24, DPM quotes a former SR official about some young whippersnapper junking all his old records.

Steve

There are typed notes on the left side of the form that did not make into the jpg. They appear to read -

# Test as required by rule 1 and 22 made while boiler was under hydrostatic pressure.
# Hammer test applied to main reservoir.

There isn't anything to explain the "?".

This last monthly inspection form is one record that was attached to a series of records that include the final monthly inspection, the last annual inspection, the last air brake inspection, a record of boiler inspection from 1941 to 1948 and a record locomotive maintenance from 1935 to 1948. These records probably went to the K&T with the purchase of the locomotive (it would make sense for the shop at Princeton to have them) and that is how they survived. The K&T did not add to them as I presume they had their own record keeping system.

.

I know this isn't exactly related, but I was hoping someone might have photos of 4501's ferry run along the SCL through North Florida, I think in 1975 or 76.
Someone asked me to help with an article about being a train buff in those areas as a kid, and I recall 4501 coming through Tallahassee, but I was just a little kid at the time. We took no photos and I've never seen any...