...or, "Who are these people?"

"And what's that black GP9 doing there?"



The on-going discussion about the late 60s-early 70s steam trips in the East reminded me of an e-mail I got from Alan Maples and John Bohon a couple of years ago. Alan sent this pic along and wanted some IDs and info My reply:

******

Wow, that’s a real blast from the past. I remember that picture and the day very well, and it’s amazing to realize how much things have changed since then--- it was taken on the N&W in February 1971. The occasion was the return leg of a High Iron Company round trip from Hagerstown to Roanoke (more on that in a bit)

Left to right we have:
W. Gifford Moore, then president of the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy., guest of HICO.

George M. Leilich, General Manager & VP-Operations, Western Maryland Railway, guest of HICO

Ross E. Rowland, Jr., HICO president (note Ross is wearing his HICO blue blazer complete with patch)

W. Graham Claytor, Southern Railway president

Robert B. Claytor, VP-Law (I think; or possibly Exec VP) of N&W

James Bistline, Southern Railway VP-Law

The trip started out of Hagerstown behind NKP 759 on a Saturday morning and made it as far as Sheperdstown, W Va on N&W’s Shenandoah Valley line, where the train halted due to a blown/damaged left side cylinder head on 759. An N&W SD45 was commandeered from a nearby freight train, and the excursion train proceeded to Roanoke about 2-3 hours late. After a banquet dinner etc. at the Hotel Roanoke that night, the train returned on Sunday behind two freshly-painted N&W passenger GP9s, with a load of very disappointed steam fans. The photo was taken during a crew change and photo stop at Shenandoah, VA on the northbound run. “Claytor Lake”s observation platform is on the left of the frame. I knew there were a number of railroad officials aboard, and asked them to pose for this picture. I was sort of an un-official “official High Iron Co. photographer” for most of that last year of 759’s operation for HICO (January to August 1971), and had full access to all HICO activities.

Photo was taken with a 4x5 Speed Graphic camera. At the time, I was 18 years old. I sent a print of the photo to each of the men pictured; interesting how this image turned up so many years later.

Recall that when this was taken, Amtrak had yet to run a train, there was a PC, E-L, Rock Island (and a load of others now gone, including the railroads of two men in the picture), cabooses and towers and stations and yards and shops everywhere, steam had been gone from the N&W for only 11 years--- railroading had not really changed very much from 1951. But it sure would change in the next 20 years.

Thanks for sending this along; I really enjoyed seeing it and it sure has brought back many memories to me. I’m glad I back-stamped my prints!!!

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Howard P.

I would be curious to wonder what would happen if someone scheduled an excursion in 2013 over the Shenandoah Valley Line from Hagerstown to Roanoke behind N&W passenger GP9's in Tuscan red..... as in, what would the price be, and how many would bother to ride or chase.

Note that the distance one-way is approximately 230 miles......

As always, good stuff, Howard! Thanks.

We are too!

I recall Howard's photo turned up among W. Graham Claytor's files in Southern Railway Historical Association's archives, now housed at the Southern Museum of Civil War and Locomotive History at Kennesaw, GA. The files also contained a good bit of correspondence regarding the early days of the Southern's excursion program.

A reoccurring theme in all of these recent threads is identification of the people involved, emphasizing the importance of documenting WHO, What, Where and When.

Alan Maples

Thanks Howard for the photo and the caption/story.

We were very forunate in that incident in that the cylinder head blew off on a/c the keeper wedge key popped out and allowed the piston to knock the head out. The wedge key was forced loose the previous night by a WM hostler moving the 759 with the cylinder cocks closed and thus the water in the cylinders did the initial damage. The HICO night watchman responsible for 759 was sound asleep and never awoke.

Needless to say his HICO carreer ended very shortly thereafter.

I say we were very fortunate as the whole incident happened just short of our going over a high trestle and the thought of the fireman's side running gear coming apart on that trestle is the stuff of nightmares.

We limped her back to Hagerstown and had her repaired in short order.

Oh the adventures!!

Ross Rowland

Things are already going downhill in the fan trip business. While all in the opening photo are dressed neatly, only one is wearing a hat!

Hah, and on top of that, only one is wearing a vest, and three aren't wearing hair!

Howard, fabulous photo!

Stephen

It is a sad commentary on our society to have witnessed how far down the dress code has gone in our country.

I'm on # 19 as I write this enroute to Atlanta from Philly and the attire of the vast majority of my fellow travelers is shameful. Torn sweat pants, shirts all wrinkled, loaded with stains, flip-flops, no socks etc.

The picture at least takes us back to a better time and place.

Ross Rowland

I think we all enjoy the pictures from the past as they were indeed better times!

Ross, Even the dress code for railroad workers has changed drastically! I'm not even going to venture here saying some of the clothing and facial jewellry i see at work. When i hired out a little over 20 years ago alot of the old heads were still wearing bib overalls, chore coats, and a few would wear the Kromer caps. Now they're all retired and i'm one of the old new guy's! Hardly anybody on the RR wears the old vintage RR clothes anymore. Very few wear bibs, the standard now in the winter months for most is a Carhartt coat, jeans, and work boots and everybody has to wear the lime green safety vest! Up until last year when i used to get my engineer license renewed it said Locomotive Engineer Certification. Now they just say transportation certification as were all transportation employees now.

I like to wear a old denim chore coat every now and then and i look out of place. The people you work with on the RR now don't even look like railroaders! Is it just me or does anybody else think the same?

I look back at all the old RR photographs of all the crew members standing/sitting on or around the locomotives and cabooses and back then they all looked so proud of their job. I love those old RR photo's! Now 90% of the guy's you work with could care less about the job as they are only there for the money. Hardly any RR crews today get their pictures taken on or around the locomotive like years ago. I don't have a picture of myself on one yet and i've been there 20 years,i wouldn't mind having at least one before i retire. Of course using a camera on the RR today is a whole different story!

The 70's deffinately were a better time than 2013 now!

*sigh*
I'll agree, all of the suburban youth these days that label their towns as "da hood" (talking about Leicester in specific) is one of the core problems. Are their outstanding exceptions? Mostly in the form of honors and advanced placement students around here. Then there are the intellectual sorts that fit the bill of "proper" attire. But for many youth, there's the social challenge of blending in with society to avoid redicule for "non-conformity". I can't even begin to count how many times I've seen through my internship in the mental health field. My ideal equation? Well, just some sneakers, black jeans and a t-shirt. Just a jacket and hat can change the basic look and allow anyone to "blend in" so to speak. Would anyone agree that a fedora and a sport coat would add an air of intellectual responsibility, while something like a sweatshirt and a snapback hat will enable one to blend in with the society that has developed with the youth community over the last few years?

I'm reminded of the humor photo from Trains years ago, where three well-dressed men in fedoras and polished shoes are walking down the walkway of a diesel, and the added voice balloon has one saying to the others, "These disguises are great! No one would EVER guess we're railfans!!"

I would venture to say that the change in attire in railroaders is actually a better thing than we give it credit for.

Why do you think railroaders dressed in those denim or pinstripe overalls, work shirts, and whatnot?? Because they were stylish? They loved Oshkosh? They had a fetish for blue? No, you fools, it's because railroading was DIRTY. Grease. Oil. Cinders. Coal. Sweat. All sorts of weather. You needed "bulletproof" clothing. And we still need it if we're working on older equipment.

Frankly, I'm happier that modern railroading can be carried out in khakis and sport shirts and baseball caps, and that social status isn't so much determined by some fancy piece of overpriced ribbon tied around the neck and shaped felt atop the head anymore, but rather by character and authority.

As an aside, at least four of the six individuals in the photo above--Leilich, the Claytors, and Bistline--were card-carrying members of the NRHS at the time of the photo.

My father, who was born in 1911, told me he had a neighbor when he was growing up who always left home wearing a suit and carrying a large leather attache case. My dad assumed the man was a doctor. Then one day my dad and his father made a trip to Atlantic City. Imagine how surprised my dad was when he spotted his "doctor" neighbor oiling around the K-4s at the bumping block at Atlantic City!

AS the above post by Mr. Mitchell sadly illustrates the tolerance for this sloppiness is accepted by enough of the population that should be leading by example and telling our young people that pants around your ankles, tats all over, earrings and other piercings in the wierdest places etc., etc. are not acceptable. His attitude only encourages them to think it's ok.

Very sad.

Everyone who I employ knows to come to work dressed appropriately whether it be for engine service or in the office. I wear a suit&tie 5 days a week because I believe in trying my best to lead by example.

Lord help us.

Ross Rowland

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example of distorting one's statement and putting words in someone else's mouth.

Show me a workplace involving moving equipment and power tools and the like that allows loose clothing and jewelry. Show me where I defended saggy pants, tattoos, piercings, and the like. (The only justification I've ever seen for them is that they tend to assist the police in apprehending criminals when the pants fall down and trip a fleeing perpetrator/suspect, or when tattoos are helpful in identifying particular suspects.)

I've seen and met professional "Balderdashers" many, many times in my life--a disadvantage of living too close to the self-proclaimed "Capital of the Free World". They were all impeccably dressed. I've met people I've come to know and trust very well, work with, have crash at my place, crashed at their places, etc. I have photos of a couple of them in horribly messy, stained, well-worn work clothes. Their attire has proven irrelevant--they're knowledgeable, accomplished, trustworthy, helpful, gracious, and wonderful people. They can dress up if they have to, but beware--they're probably being forced to deal with less-savory people, like politicians and financial types.

Spiffy attire of the sort in the photo in the original post is emblematic of the same day and era of the steam locomotives involved in that day's activities. It was emblematic of the "good old days" when "men were men." When smoking and three-martini lunches were de rigueur among a certain class. Where women stayed home and took care of the four kids and the dog. Where blue-collar workers and "colored people" "knew their place" (at the back of the bus, at separate eating establishments, etc.). Where coal miners, steelworkers, shipbuilders, lumberjacks, railroaders, etc.--the very men who made those suit-and-tie careers in that photo possible--were often lucky to retire with their bodies intact.

If I used Rowland's style of rhetoric, I could accuse him of wanting the things and era I just described above to come back in style. I know better than that, however.

Those who so often lament the "good old days" typically have very selective amnesia.

And I honestly don't think I'd recognize Linn Moedinger, Andy Muller, Bennett Levin, Jerry Jacobson, or quite a few of the other guys we talk about if I saw them in a suit.