Suppose hypothetically that a large rail museum or county park wanted to put electric transit within the park, say a total ride of 1 mile. Their choices were historic streetcar, or historic trolley bus.

Which would be more practicable, and why?

Robert, my hunch (and it is only a hunch; there other others on this forum with more traction knowledge than me) would be the trolley bus. Both modes require stringing catenary. Common sense tells me that adding a second wire for the trolley bus could be achieved at an incremental cost. The historic streetcar, on the other hand, would require tearing up the streets, laying prefab panel track, bonding the track with either jumpers or thermite welding, and then burying the track infrastructure before repaving the road surface. That strikes me as way more expensive than stringing a second wire for the trolley bus. The foregoing assumptions do not address maintenance costs and electricity consumption. I suppose that a historic trolley would have some marketing edge, but whether that would offset the utility of the trolley bus, I cannot say.

One would need to address the mission and marketing objectives behind installing either system. Is this simply a historically-flavored transit system, say, between a remote parking lot and the main entrance to the park? Or is this an integral part of, for example, a historic 1910 village, where a streetcar would be historically appropriate and a trolley bus would not? In such cases desired outcomes may outweight practical considerations.

IMHO, of course.

Mike

One detail is needed for a choice. Will the electric vehicle have its own right of way or will it be on a street shared with other traffic? Exclusive right of way where open track can be used, definitely streetcar. Mixed traffic on a paved street, definitely trolleybus. Paved track is more expensive by far, considering that for durability, there should be a concrete slab under the finish paving and above the ballast. Underground utilities, if any, add to the cost.

The second wire would add about $5-10 per foot, mostly for the wire, but also additional insulation and installation labor.

The biggest cost driver is the choice of designers. The quickest way to run up the cost is to hire "Gold & Plated, Engineers". These are people who never heard of embedded wood poles or substations less than 1.5 mw.

Factor to consider:

If we assume that you're using "vintage" equipment, it's far easier, in my experience, to find and obtain a vintage PCC or other tram, AND the supporting parts, than it is a trolley coach and its parts. There are several PCCs going derelict here and there; not so much trolley buses unless you live in or are friendly with Dayton, Ohio's system.....

If you're building a brand-new system for Disney or some amusement/national park, all bets are off regarding that stuff. And with diesel-electric "hybrid" buses all the rage these days in urban transit, it may be easy to find an electrically propelled bus to convert to trolley needs (maybe the manufacturers are already up to that point for you) if you have the cash to spend....

It also depends on if the trackage you plan to use is already in place. If it is, then you "just" have to add overhead and bond the rails. If not, it is probably cheaper to pave the "route" than to build track. Unless, you can get the track materials donated and volunteer labor to build the track.

Also, do you have the vehicle(s) in question on hand?

Depends on how much the agency wants to spend and, as mentioned above, whether the proposed line is on private ROW or on a roadway. It would be cheaper to hang trolley bus wire than lay down track and a single overhead wire. You'd need basically same power supply for either. If the vehicle runs in or next to a roadway, then ETB is the cheapest. If PROW, then the streetcar is your best option.

Thanks!

No truer words were spoke.

Example #1. When our Como-Harriet Streetcar Line was granted ISTEA funds to rebuild our track, the track design work was subbed to a well known engineering firm specializing in light rail line design. Their idea of rebuilding the track was to dig out about 12-18-inches of soil beneath the track and put down compacted crusher run sub-base upon which the ballasted track would be laid. We didn't catch or question that specification until the bids came in at about $100K+ over the amount we had to work with. The specs for the whole project had to be re-done to eliminate the requirement that you could run a GG-1 over the track.

Example #2. Our Excelsior Streetcar Line's (ESL) trolley wire has been a real problem because whoever did the engineering work didn't know what they were doing. Line poles were too small in diameter so they bent inwards, no back guys installed on line poles on the curves, bracket arms put on poles before the poles were planted in the ground thus making the wire on average one to two feet (and less in places) below the standard of 18-feet above the rail. This happened because the crews planted the poles too far into the ground with no regard for the height of the wire. The engineering boo-boo list can go on. Our Museum wasn't involved with the design and build of our ESL, but we inherited a mess that we're continuing to fix.

Hard lessons learned on both counts. Closely scrutinize proposals and bid documents if a "high powered" engineering firm is involved.

Thanks!

Speaking of a Disney project, how about this photo from John Smatlak of the great Orange Empire Railway Museum.

This is a new Disney theme park in California. The Brookville Equipment-built mini-Hollywood car actually runs on batteries and the overhead is not energized. The scene in the background is painted! Ahh, to have money, eh?

Thanks!

What about training and qualifications to drive a bus versus a train? Running on rails reduces the need to worry about clearance turning corners, etc.. I suspect that there are people who can drive trains who would not be very good with a bus.

Does anyone from IRM or another museum with buses have experience with this issue?

The decision could be more aesthetics than technicalities, those are all solvable, would a classic streetcar have more charm riding than a trolley bus?

The obvious characteristics of the trolley bus has to do with ridership needs and the city/town they need to run in and the choices required for the desired operation.

We know about the fake streetcar busses. "trolley" busses.

Just look up Kenosha Streetcar and why they opted to put their trolley system in.
Several cities have put in new or reworked old systems to get Street cars back running in official rider operation.


to me...Trolley bus...yer kiddin me...

A CDL is required to operate buses (trolley or internal combustion) at IRM, along with being rules qualified.

Jeff

You may not be aware of it, but the term "catenary" implies a fancier, and more complicated overhead wiring. Both trolleys and trolley buses can use a simple trolley wire. Seattle's current trolley bus system still uses trolley wire.

Many modern light rail systems use catenary, it's sturdier and better suited to high speed operation.

GG-1 style catenary was specified by the aforesaid Gold & Plated Engineers for rebuilding some of the street running portions of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's current trolley car system.

Check local laws, trolley buses are not motor vehicles in places like Pennsylvania, so a Commercial Driver's License requirement may be a private decision. An All Service Vehicle, with an internal combustion engine added for off wire running, is a motor vehicle in Penna., and subject to all of those regulations.

There was, during the 1980's, a field full of trolley buses near New Westminster BC. I presume they were from nearby Vancouver, BC. I'm also guessing they're long gone. I seem to recall there were visible from the BNSF line to Seattle, and I don't recall seeing them in quite some time.

Anyone know details? Was there any preservation intent, or simply one of the many scrapyards in the area?

Mathematically, “catenary” is a term for describing the sag of any wire or cable that is supported at its ends. Webster’s says it’s “the curve assumed by a cord of uniform density and cross section that is perfectly flexible but not capable of being stretched and that hangs freely from two fixed points.” The amount of sag obviously varies with the tension in the conductor, which will also vary due to temperature and other factors. So, strictly speaking, simple trolley wire systems are catenaries although it’s usually best to avoid that terminology except when actually referring to “overhead contact wire systems” that incorporate a messenger cable from which a contact wire is suspended.

Concerning “Gold & Plated Engineers”, oftentimes what you’re dealing with is a variation of the rule: “When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.” When I left Conrail 36 years ago and came over to the Dark Side of the Force, one of the older engineers, himself a railway museum volunteer, told me that the problem with most rail transit consultants is that they don’t have enough trolley museum experience. With a few very notable exceptions, consulting engineering firms, large and small, have good intentions but very little understanding of what we are all about. It is therefore extremely important that your request for proposals makes crystal clear exactly what you want and also mandates that their proposal explain in detail how they intend to make certain you get it. For example, if you want somebody to design a simple trolley wire system, you could stipulate that it should be designed in accordance with the American Transit Engineering Association’s Engineering Manual Section D14-37 “Specification for 750 Volts Direct Suspension Overhead Trolley Contact Construction”. Since the ATEA has been defunct since about 1945, most consultants won’t have a clue what you are talking about. This makes it easier to weed out the ones who are unlikely to produce what you need. The same applies to trackwork design, where the vast majority of consultants have no idea how to design track that’s suited to trolley cars with small diameter wheels, small wheel flanges and small values of track gauge/wheel gauge freeplay.

With respect to trolley coaches versus trolley cars, another professional colleague once noted to me that the trackless trolley combined the worst of both worlds – it had the poor ride quality of a motor coach combined with the streetcar’s inability to detour off-route when circumstances required.


/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.