tomayto, tomahtoe...heh

In the early days..no cars, streetcars ruled. Or your on foot or horseback and or buggy drawn.

Major cities had multiple routes, a problem ahead plenty of switches to veer off, but in a problem car, you had push bars or tow bars, another car could move another along out of the way. And no flat tires.

We're talking a simple tourist line not in heavy congestion.

I'd try to not confuse the difference between simple strung wire and all out catenary construction, it is a very different animal.

The 1987 specification for track in paving for MATA in Dallas does not include a track slab. If I remember the detail correctly, it was lime stabilized subgrade, compacted ballast and asphalt paving. The paving has performed suitably in high traffic in the past 25 years with only normal pavement maintenance.

There are probably a lot of factors that determine costs and how affordably a project can be done. I would try to find an engineering company that has real on the ground experience (Stone Consulting is one of my favorites) with your type of project. If you are stuck with an inexperienced engineering company, make sure you've got a consultant with relevant experience and either the authority or the balls to fight the engineers when they go overboard.

Been there and done that...

I was the track inspector on the Seattle Waterfront Streetcar for many years. At one point they brought in another inspector to review the line. Fine with me, it's always a good idea to have somebody check your work.

The first I heard about it was when they called me, all in a panic, and said they had a big problem. Something needs fixed right now! So I attend a big power meeting, and they say "The consultant says the frogs are totally worn out and should be replaced immediately!" "Uhm, they look fine to me, what's the problem?" "The flanges are hitting the frog! They shouldn't be doing that!" "Well, actually they should, they're tramway frogs, flange bearing to make a smooth ride over the frog. That's what you designed and you had them custom built for this application..." "Oh..."

I believe this was a scrapyard with plans to resell the buses, at least one made it into preservation: http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi? ... ansit=2340

Jeff

That sure looks like the ones I recall. There were quite a few of them, looked like hundreds, probably at least 50 or more in reality.

From reading the comments, a chief feature of them is the issue of a lack of a practical knowledge base in the U.S due to a lack of continuity ( experience) arising from the loss from an industry that largely vanished during the 1930's, only to be rediscovered (like reinventing the wheel) a half century later. The evolution by experience was not there.
That is one unique situation.
You would think the simpler, more elegant designs in terms of wearability, maintainability of a Prewar industry would be studied rather than missing in action, especially the fiasco of the Boeing over-designed light rail cars or requiring catenary, overbuilt track systems etc. I don't see any great improvements in the designed life expectancy of more "sophisticated" designs..when you consider the "primitive" use of friction bearing trucks, wooden support poles, more severe gradients, simple single wire spans, etc that were quite serviceable.In extreme cases of longevity,the CNSM did quite well in maintaining 24/7 70 mph operations with what would be termed less until 1963.
The only substantiated change is a more dedicated right of way. That is why preservation has a unique position in unexpected ways that I personally think has not been taken advantage of in rediscovering that knowledge base from those who are not isolated from it.

I never intended to direct this thread to the tangent issue of consultant foibles, but an offhand comment started something.

The practical knowledge about trolley infrastructure does exist, although not widespread. One way to make it available to any organization in need of it is simply to post a question on this board. Several posters and lurkers have "been there, done that", and are willing to help fellow members of the museum community.

I would reluctantly vote for the trolley bus if I had to chose between two rare commodities
, each of which has innumerable components and issues of availability and maintenance and the only thing they have in common is the overhead. The advantage to using a paved right of way versus the maintenance of track work, or special work if required seems obvious. Then the question becomes one of how much of a footprint is needed for the right of way and how much is available as the trolley bus needs a turn-around at each end while the streetcar simply exchanges poles. Another advantage is the fact that trolley buses still operate, so you are not stuck with replicas, basket cases, etc in the case of a streetcar. The trolley bus in this era of green trending is a more compelling example of alternatives while any streetcar would look comparatively antique. I think it would intrigue as much as a streetcar as they are not something you come across everyday. That is to say, for the general public.

trolley parlor car interior



I'll ride this

vs



trolley bus

I think there is a builder out there making streetcar replicas.

Its one thing getting a museum piece to run, then maybe your better with
something new and ready replaceable parts.

http://www.gomacotrolley.com/Resources/ ... crest.html

yep here

Unfair comparison.

Put a parlor car trolley against a luxury limo, or a subway car against that bus.

The question might be one of availability. The answers thusfar have appeared to assume that either a trolley bus or a streetcar could be found that could operate, or be restored to operation. Are there first or second generation trolley buses out there and at what cost? The same question needs to be asked for streetcars.

Way to make a local issue please both sides....or no side, Bruce. We're (Charlotte) caught in a clusterpolitik about a streetcar project which is more about promoting development in some targeted areas - that unquestionably need to be rescued from a couple decades of mismanagement by the state DOT and city antiplanners - than for transportation. Not that i wouldn't ride it.......unlike our modern light rail it goes from near where I live to other places I tend to go from time to time.

Point being, the idea for streetcars being more likely to bring development is the permanent track infrastructure demonstrates commitment, while diesel busses can just be rerouted since the asphalt is already down whether it carries busses or not. No investment = no commitment. Does overhead wire for trolleybusses carry that same perception from a developers POV?

If this has been either proven or disproven in other cities as a redevelopment tool, please talk about it here. I'm always interested in promoting rail, but I'd rather have trolleybusses than nothing, and the streetcars chosen are modernistic crap completely out of style with the older neighborhoods they will serve so I won't miss them too much.

dave

I'm thinking of trolley or trolley-bus for transit within a large town park that is not highly developed, or a railroad museum with a large site. Think like IRM, except imagine if visitor facilities were scattered around the extended complex rather than concentrated in the northwest. And I'm thinking the trolleybus can have an unpaved RoW, or run on any streets that happen to be paved.

Advantage trolley bus:
- Unpaved roads will suffice, and satisfy the fire marshal's requirements for access roads. (unlike RR track)
- A lot easier to use if your streets are paved
- Grades, much easier to lay out a non-level site when your vehicle can scamper up grades of 25% or more (in fact this can be part of the show.)
- Easy to cross track or even a yard throat. Gives more freedom in site design.
- Cheaper to maintain - 1 motor instead of 4. Any truck/bus garage can do a lot of the work.
- No trolley wire above parked railroad equipment for visitors to get electrocuted on
- Possibility of venturing out onto public streets.
- Truly unique and interesting. There are only 5 places in the US that run trolley buses.
- A lot easier to ship, including overseas from the many foreign countries that run trolley buses.
- No FRA restrictions on running at full speed. Give them the full experience.
- No need for double ended cars, and no special trackwork required for reversing loop.

Advantage streetcar:
- Customers like streetcars better.
- Easier to get more "old-timey" stock. Most surviving trolley buses have spartan urban interiors.
- Glut of PCC's. However, SF and Philly have cherry picked all the good ones.
- Cleaner, less dusty operation.
- Nobody drives on your right-of-way but you.
- Less need for feeder wire, because railroad track conducts better than another trolley wire.
- Lets you become a streetcar museum, or merge with a nearby streetcar museum.

The initial question specified a short ride / visitor circulator in a museum or part, not commercial development. With that in mind, I'd go with the streetcar. Why?

The streetcar is definitely an iconic symbol, instantly recognizable to all the visitors as quaint and old timey. It can have large open windows; it could even be "Gay Nineties" open car.

To the visitors, a trolley bus is still just a bus.

There is a reason why the fake "trolleys" borrow all their styling elements, admittedly poorly, from pre WWI street railway practice.

No feeder wire needed for either on an operation of the size you describe, particularily if you use 4/0 contact wire.

I am leery of running trolley buses on unpaved streets. I think that you would have maintenance problems due to dust.

Even with 2 motors, a Birney car is about as simple to maintain as you can get. Newer stuff has much more complex control systems.

Wire work for trolleybus loop is not simple. Go to IRM or Seashore to see examples.