Can anyone tell me of the status of Cylestic 1500 steam oil. I hear that it will be discontinued and some are placing a last order.

> Can anyone tell me of the status of Cylestic
> 1500 steam oil. I hear that it will be
> discontinued and some are placing a last
> order.

That is what we were told by our distrubutor. All Cylestic steam oils are being discontinued in favor of the Mobil Extra Hecla. This is a result of the Exxon-Mobil merger.

kelly@strasburgrailroad.com

Bob

Email me I have the information you are looking for to order a replacement mix to Cylestic specs.

Rich Young

ryoungceo@yahoo.com

Hi tech steam engineer Bill Pettijean has formulated new better steam oils for saturated or superheated applications which he has tested beyond reasonable requirements - anybody knowing Bill understands his thorough nature.

Not sure of his contact information - perhaps someone will ask him to post here?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Can anyone tell me of the status of Cylestic
> 1500 steam oil. I hear that it will be
> discontinued and some are placing a last
> order.

They already have stopped producing it. And have exhausted the supply on hand.

Talk to the UP guys in Cheyenne. They got another company to make the same very same formula and specs, and Exxon/Mobile agreed to let the specs and recipe be duplicated.

Thanks for the heads up Dave and the other posters on steam cylinder oil. I had heard via third parties that the Cylesstic oils are being discontinued. These threads seem to confirm those rumors.

I have blended and tested two of three cylinder oil grades for saturated and superheated steam cylinders. I have named these oils Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil and the two grades now in production are called Sapon-A-Max and Sapon-A-Med. Sapon-A-Max, Formula 1 is an ISO460+ grade (the + sign means the oil exceeds the top of the ISO460 range slightly) with 10% compounding intended for steam pressures under 160 psi saturated where there is considerable moisture and water washing in the cylinders. Sapon-A-Med, Formula 2 is a heavier viscosity oil that meets ISO680 viscosity standards. It also, has 10% compounding and is intended for superheat and saturated steam up to about 200 psi. The higher compounding (versus 5% for Formula 1) is intended to provide enough emulsifying effect to adequately lubricate air compressors running on saturated steam, but also provide enough body to maintain satisfactory films in superheated main cylinders.

The third grade is Sapon-A-Min, Formula 3. This grade is an ISO1000 grade with, again, 10% compounding. This grade is intended for locomotives with type A superheaters, or type E superheater equipped engines that do not work very hard. It should not be used at steam pressures exceeding about 250 psi, or steam temperatures exceeding 650 deg. F. I have not blended much Sapon-A-Min yet, partly because I would like to develop a synthetic blend instead.

I can blend any viscosity and percentage compounding you want. However, as the viscosity goes up, the carbon residue number goes up. Thus, in the higher viscosities a synthetic base oil is significantly better because it is much more stable at high temperatures. This is why I have hesitated to invest in mineral oil components required for the high temperature oil.

It does not surprise me that the Exxon Cylesstic oils are disappearing. They are just the latest in a long line of cylinder oils that have been discontinued over the years. It is interesting that several operators, including the UP are going to have the Cylesstic oils custom blended. Of course I would rather have them buy my oil, but I have not talked with Steve Lee or Doyle McCormick yet. Although I am slightly biased, I have enough experience with Green Velvet Steam Cylinde Oil now that I think it is a better cylinder lubricant than anything else on the market. I am almost certain I use the same Polybutene tackiness additive Exxon used. Furthermore, I buy the best parafinnic base stock available from the last refinery in the U.S. that exclusively refines Pennsylvania Grade Crude oil. The best cylinder oils have always been made from Pennsylvania parafinnic base oils. I also use traditional acidless tallow products that have been used by cylinder oil blenders for over 100 years. They are highly refined to remove almost all free fatty acids, are an excellent lubricant in their own right and have a high flashpoint around 600 deg. F.

My formulations are simple and follow the best guidelines developed for cylinder oils by the Skinner Engine Company in the 1940's and 1950's. These formulations are backed up by my ironclad guarantee that I won't change components, proportions or vendors unless I identify the changes with a new formula designation. I do not make gear oils! Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil is made by steam engineers for steam engine operators only!

These oils have been in service in a variety of engines since May, 2002. I have received repeat orders, most notably from the Heber Valley Railroad. Mt. Rainier Scenic Railroad has operated their superheated Climax on Sapon-A-Med and it looks like they will make this their standard oil for both saturated and superheated locomotives.

I have located a modified synthetic gear lubricant that is giving excellent service at 440 psi 700 deg. F in a Skinner Marine Unaflow engine. However, the blender is not giving me very satifactory response to my inquiries about selling his oil so I am starting my own development. I hope to have some answers on this subject at the TRAIN 2002 Convention, but will probably have no samples by that time.

I will be at the TRAIN 2002 Convention in Durango with a vendor's table. I would be happy to discuss cylinder lubrication with anyone who wishes to stop by and chat. Meanwhile, I am busy putting together my blending equipment to fill 55 gallon drum orders by late Winter, or early Spring, 2003. Currently I am selling quarts, 1/2 gallon bottles, 1 gallon bottles and 5 gallon pails.

If anyone is interested in Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil please contact me at the above email address for pricing and more information.

Bill Petitjean

petitinc@nwlink.com

Mr. Petitjean:

I think a major consideration with both Mr.Lee and Mr.McCormack, is the fact that their engines operate at 300 psi and work hard, with a high degree of superheat.

From your standpoint, further development of the high pressure, high temperature product may be (understandably) unattractive because of the limited market.



O.R.&N. 197
orn197@teleport.com

> From your standpoint, further development of
> the high pressure, high temperature product
> may be (understandably) unattractive because
> of the limited market.

Well, don't forget the steam automobile drivers, who often run at 600 Lbs superheated, they would like to have an excellent cylinder oil too. Especially one that can be seperated out after use, so it doesn't plug up the condensor!


djdewey@cncnet.com

These products are blended and many lubricant companies can and will mix you up whatever you need. I know of several smaller ones in the Delaware Valley that will do just that.

Tom Gears
Wilmington, DE

Forgotten Delaware
tom@forgottendelaware.com

Hi Rob, Dave and Tom:

Rob: You are right. There are not a lot of high temperature, superheated engines out there. So, the projected volumes of a really good cylinder oil for these applications is just not there. However, if I combine the limited marine, steam automobile and locomotive markets there is some motivation to pursue the synthetic option. I know synthetics will provide a much better cylinder lube because some of the steam automobile people are using some currently blended products that seem to work. Also, the old C&O car ferry (1952), S.S. Badger on Lake Michigan still runs from Ludington, MI to Kewaunee, WI. This ship uses two Skinner steeple compound unaflow steam engines that are enormous (26" h.p. pistons, 54" l.p. pistons - 4 cylinders, 36" stroke, 3,600 hp each). The steam conditions are 440 psi at 700 deg. F. I know these engines very well (I worked at Skinner). They gave trouble with carbon and excessive ring wear from day one. They started out with 740 deg. F., but couldn't find an oil that would hold up (unaflows run much hotter than counterflow engines - which all locomotives have). They reduced the superheat to about 680-700 deg. F and reduced the problems, but never completely solved them. These engines have always been problem children and different oils have been tried over the years. I talked with their chief engineer and they have been using a synthetic lube they just stabbed at from a company called Royal Purple. They have been using this oil for about one year, I think. This synthetic lube is a modified gear oil and it performs well.

All the old problems with mineral based oils have disappeared and I now have great confidence in a synthetic lube working better than anything else for the hi-temp marine, steam automobile and locomotive people. Unfortunately, The Royal Purple people have been more like a Royal Pain as I have tried to work with them to obtain technical data and build a relationship where I can market their oils to a diverse steam engine market. Therefore, I have decided to research, develop and blend my own synthetic lube because there is too much risk dealing with a company that doesn't really care about steam engines. This will overlap with some of my mineral oil based oils and will be more expensive. But, where it can be justified it will be far superior to the old mineral oil blends, including all the heavier Cylesstic oils.

Also, Interlube 322T is the cylinder oil recommended by Scott Lindsey. I have samples of Cylesstic TK1500 and Interlube 322T which I will test soon to compare them. Scott had very good luck with 322T in all the N&W engines over the years and he recommends it exclusively to all his clients. I tried to work with Interlube in Cinncinati, but their Technical Director, Dennis Braun just blew me off. Too bad. Now I am his competitor because I can't get between a vendor and a customer if the vendor won't support me with generic technical data. Not to worry though. When I pushed Braun he blew up and told me this market is so small he doesn't really know why his boss let's him make cylinder oil at all. Not a very reliable supplier over the long run I would say.

If someone wants to get me the Cylesstic recipes I will review them and if they are substantially different from mine I can custom blend them too. Then it will be just a matter of price. Also, I have no minimum blending quantities. If you want to buy a quart, I will sell it to you. As I said in my earlier post, my oils, regardless of formulation are made with identifiable components. There are no mystery base oils in my lubricants and this is fundamentally important. The Cylesstic oils are also used as gear oils and their formulations have been modified to meet the AGMA standards. I think it is a mistake to duplicate the existing Cylesstic formulations. I would modify these recipes to produce a simple steam cylinder lube without all the recirculating gearbox additives that tend to come out as carbon and goo in the cylinders and valve chests. I won't even discuss the Super Hecla oils. They are an inferior product for steam engines.

Dave: I have posted to John Woodson's website about my cylinder oils and have solicited interest in custom blending cylinder lubes and crankcase lubes for the the steam car guys. So far, no takers. I attended the SCA meet in Monroe, WA near my home and talked to everybody and handed out literature. So far, no takers. I am going to call Art Hart because he supplies most of the East Coast car owners with Cylesstic. I might make some progress with him since he can't get Cylesstic anymore. I haven't gotten a great ground swell of support yet, but I am still optimistic.

Tom: The real question is knowing what you really need. I doubt most of the blenders you mention know a steam engine from an osterizer. They also think all base oils are all the same and have a bad habit of using viscosity builders that completely fall apart in steam cylinders. Furthermore, most of these guys want a minimum order. I don't really want to blend oil, but most of the blenders I talk with want about a 3,000 gallon order for a particular formulation. This is rediculous. So I have started investing in equipment to blend my own oil so I really can supply everybody from the small modeler who wants a one quart squeeze bottle on his work bench to a Durango & Silverton who orders two barrels at a whack all season long.

More importantly, I am not afraid of a little competition and will not try to take somebody away from an oil they currently like. However, I am in this to make some money. If this fragmented industry goes a million different directions at once and I cannot sell enough cylinder oil to make it worth my while I will quit and everybody can use shoe polish if they want to. I have been around steam engines of all types for over 35 years. I have chosen steam cylinder oil as a niche where I can contribute to good safe operation of steam engines. I bring a lot of experience to the cylinder lube game. This is something you will find nowhere else.

Bill Petitjean


petitinc@nwlink.com

Bill - I just replaced a balky unreliable hydrostatic lubricator on NHV 17 with two mechanicals - one Manzel for the running gear and a Westinghouse air actuated mechanical for the air pump. The WABCO is set up to feed both steam and air ends from one reservior. I have heard both no problem and maximum problem reports from others who are using steam oils in air brake systems. Wild card is diesels also pull the same cars and introduce the air oils from their compressors.

How about a blend which will lube both ends of the air pump and not react with air oils to gum and varnish and make a general nuisance of themselves?

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

One supplier told us that a big reason that steam oils are inferior today is that they no longer include lead in the mix, where in the old days, lead was a standard ingredient in steam oil. Do you include lead in your oils? Do you think it matters?

kelly@strasburgrailroad.com

> Bill - I just replaced a balky unreliable
> hydrostatic lubricator on NHV 17 with two
> mechanicals - one Manzel for the running
> gear and a Westinghouse air actuated
> mechanical for the air pump. The WABCO is
> set up to feed both steam and air ends from
> one reservior. I have heard both no problem
> and maximum problem reports from others who
> are using steam oils in air brake systems.
> Wild card is diesels also pull the same cars
> and introduce the air oils from their
> compressors.

> How about a blend which will lube both ends
> of the air pump and not react with air oils
> to gum and varnish and make a general
> nuisance of themselves?

> Dave

Hi Dave:

The general problem with a steam cylinder lubricant in air cylinders is twofold. First, air compressor cylinders can get very hot - far hotter than the flashpoint of the typical steam cylinder oils. This causes the oil to evaporate and form hard carbon deposits which cause sticking rings and air valves. This is why Bernie Watts (Backshop Enterprises) only recommends Estrolene, a synthetic lubricant for air ends and absolutely will not recommend steam cylinder oil.

Second, steam cylinders in air compressors usually use saturated steam from the boiler. Only a few superpower engines with front end throttles utilize superheated steam for the air compressors. This means the steam end must use a cylinder oil that has a significant amount of compounding. Compounding uses tallow, which is an animal fat. The object is to form a tacky, oil laden emulsion that can resist water washing the oil film off the cylinder walls. While air ends can be "wet" too because of leaking rod packings, they typically do not need the same compounded oils as the steam cylinders. Tallow decomposes into a residual mess at high temperatures and any tallow that gets into the air brake system can cause sticking problems.

Therefore, I wouldn't use mineral based steam cylinder oils that are compounded with tallow. When I am finished developing my synthetic cylinder lube I may be able to recommend it for air ends, but only if I can find a suitable synthetic surfactant that will form a stable emulsion in the steam cylinders, but will separate out easily in air reservoirs. You definitely don't want to get emulsions in the air brake system.

In conclusion, I feel you should go back to the standard oil cups for lubricating the air end with a good air compressor oil and use the mechanical lubricator for the steam end only. Bernie Watts can advise you in more detail because he has many years of experience with locomotive air compressors.

Bill Petitjean


petitinc@nwlink.com

> One supplier told us that a big reason that
> steam oils are inferior today is that they
> no longer include lead in the mix, where in
> the old days, lead was a standard ingredient
> in steam oil. Do you include lead in your
> oils? Do you think it matters?

Hi Kelly:

I don't believe lead based compounds were ever used in most steam cylinder oils. The primary reason is the inability to keep dry type lubricants in suspension in the base oil. This means your lead compounds would eventually all end up at the bottom of the drum. There is a company in Texas that puts a proprietary dry lube in their gear and cylinder oils. However, they told me their big secret is the sizing and blending operation that will keep the stuff in suspension.

This company, Lubrication Engineers used to make hard grease products, but discontinued this line years ago because they put now banned lead based dry lubes in the cake grease. When the lead compounds were banned they just quit making the grease. Maybe your supplier was getting mixed up with gear oils and greases.

I use parafinnic base oils, acidless tallow products and polybutene only in my oils. All these components have excellent lubricity and do not need a dry lubricant component if they are applied to the cylinders and valve chests properly. Lead, like asbestos is such a pariah today that I wouldn't deal with it in any shape or form. I hope this is helpful.

Bill Petitjean

petitinc@nwlink.com

My thoughts too. As you know I used to work for Bernie and he tought me a hell of a lot about air pumps and appliances.

Southern Ry used to melt down grease sicks in hot water for air end lube. Ouch.

Having dealt with air pumps on GOAT with valves so crusted in we almost couldn't get them out i am most anxious to not have the new air pump on 17 get fouled as well. Will use B cup on the air end for now until you can create the correct oil for both appications - if it is possible.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net