The thread below about Baldwins leads me to the following questions:

1.) Being a too-little, too late effort by a steam-era builder, why isn't there a cult affection for Baldwin diesels as there is for Alco's?

Is it because all the really "interesting" stuff-like babyfaces and centipedes are long since gone?

2.) Other than SMS, does anybody run Baldwins on a regular or semi regular basis now? Is there anywhere in the Northeast somebody could get to hear the reputed "burbling" w/o infringing on others property rights? Are the AS-16's? at SMS Baldwins or Baldwin-Lima-Hamiltons?

3.) Where the heck do you get parts?

4.) Did Baldwin manufacture own prime movers?

5.) Who supplied the electricals?

Thanks for the thoughts, I found out recently I probably had some Baldwins in my Lehigh-valley watching childhood, but was too impressed by Snowbirds to notice something indistinguishable from any other switcher for a sub 10 year old to notice.



superheater@beer.com

> 1.) Being a too-little, too late effort by a
> steam-era builder, why isn't there a cult
> affection for Baldwin diesels as there is
> for Alco's?

> Is it because all the really
> "interesting" stuff-like babyfaces
> and centipedes are long since gone?

This is a primary factor. Also, the bigger Baldwins were among the first of the diesel types to be eliminated by railroads after the company's failure, since there would then be a lack of parts and support. Strictlt speaking, Baldwin never got to make anything that would be considered "second generation", unlike Alco.

There are also sheer numbers to consider. After GE came about as a big loco builder, Baldwin's relative stature slipped from third to fourth, and it's still, comparably speaking, easier to root for, say, Chrysler or Volkswagen than AMC, Studebaker, or MG.

I'm probably not the only one that says that the people at SMS and the Escanaba & Lake Superior (now functionally all-EMD, BTW) have to have the same masochistic gene in them that bedevils the fanatics of MGs, Triumphs, and Audis. They survive on SMS because the owners love Baldwins as a home-town product and because they endure very light duty that never has to max out the locos' capabilities.

lner4472@bcpl.net

Are the AS-16's? at
> SMS Baldwins or Baldwin-Lima-Hamiltons?

Given that the AS-16 whent into production the year of the BLH merger (1950), and production ended in 1955, I'd say they are almost certainly BLHs

> 4.) Did Baldwin manufacture own prime
> movers?

Yes, 12.75 x 15.5, based on the De La Vergne marine disel

> 5.) Who supplied the electricals?

Mostly Westinghouse, which held stock control of Baldwin from 1947-1951. Westinghouse quit building heavey traction equiptment in 1953-54, so some of the very last Baldwins had GE electricals.

All answers drawn from my tattered copy of Pinkepank's Second Diesel Spotters Guide.

ASME National Engineering Landmarks Roster
eledbetter@rypn.org

> The thread below about Baldwins leads me to
> the following questions:

> 1.) Being a too-little, too late effort by a
> steam-era builder, why isn't there a cult
> affection for Baldwin diesels as there is
> for Alco's?

> Is it because all the really
> "interesting" stuff-like babyfaces
> and centipedes are long since gone?

This and the fact that compared to Alco and EMD in the same time period, the bulk of what Baldwin built were yard engines instead of road engines. And road engines (even high-hooded one like AS-16s) often steal all the glory. And when compared to EMD and Alco engines of the same period, even the road locomotives were demoted from mainline to branch or yard service very early in thier careers.

> The thread below about Baldwins leads me to
> the following questions:

> 1.) Being a too-little, too late effort by a
> steam-era builder, why isn't there a cult
> affection for Baldwin diesels as there is
> for Alco's?

> Is it because all the really
> "interesting" stuff-like babyfaces
> and centipedes are long since gone?

There are at least a few of us who are Baldwin diesel fans. In my case it may be from growing up in Michigan's Upper Peninsula near the DSS&A mainline to Marquette; all of the trains had either single center cabs (DT 6-6-2000?) or pairs of DRS-6-6-1500 or AS-616 road-switchers in a very attractive yellow and green paint scheme with red stripes. (They also had ALCO RS-1s but apparently only as switchers or local freight power as I never saw one on a mainline freight. When Soo Line took over, the Baldwins were replaced on that line by maroon Geeps and, later, red and white F's were added.

Many shortlines seemed to like Baldwins; in the UP there were the Copper Range and the Calumet and Hecla (the latter also had GE 70-tonners). Later I moved to California and found Baldwins on the Sierra, McCloud, California Western, Amador Central, and Pacific Lumber Company, as well as on Weyerheauser's logging line out of Klamath Falls, Oregon, and on the Esquimalt and Nanaimo and Crown Zellerbach lines on Vancouver Island. And I almost forgot that the Magma Arizona dieselized with second-hand Baldwins from the McCloud River RR and Oregon's Medford Corporation. I was told that the Baldwins were well-liked on these lines because of their pulling power, a legacy of the generous size of the Westinghouse generators and motors.

> 2.) Other than SMS, does anybody run
> Baldwins on a regular or semi regular basis
> now? Is there anywhere in the Northeast
> somebody could get to hear the reputed
> "burbling" w/o infringing on
> others property rights? Are the AS-16's? at
> SMS Baldwins or Baldwin-Lima-Hamiltons?

I do not know about the Northeast, but here in California, Sierra has restored one of their Baldwins for their tourist trains out of Oakdale (not to be confused with the State-operated steam trains out of Jamestown's Railtown 1897 State Park). Also, I understand the the recent reincarnation of the Amador Central uses one of their two original Baldwins, but I have not seen it myself.

> 3.) Where the heck do you get parts?

> 4.) Did Baldwin manufacture own prime
> movers?

> 5.) Who supplied the electricals?

> Thanks for the thoughts, I found out
> recently I probably had some Baldwins in my
> Lehigh-valley watching childhood, but was
> too impressed by Snowbirds to notice
> something indistinguishable from any other
> switcher for a sub 10 year old to notice.


holombo.chris@ssd.loral.com

> The thread below about Baldwins leads me to
> the following questions:

> 1.) Being a too-little, too late effort by a
> steam-era builder, why isn't there a cult
> affection for Baldwin diesels as there is
> for Alco's?

> Is it because all the really
> "interesting" stuff-like babyfaces
> and centipedes are long since gone?

> 2.) Other than SMS, does anybody run
> Baldwins on a regular or semi regular basis
> now? Is there anywhere in the Northeast
> somebody could get to hear the reputed
> "burbling" w/o infringing on
> others property rights? Are the AS-16's? at
> SMS Baldwins or Baldwin-Lima-Hamiltons?

> 3.) Where the heck do you get parts?

> 4.) Did Baldwin manufacture own prime
> movers?

> 5.) Who supplied the electricals?

> Thanks for the thoughts, I found out
> recently I probably had some Baldwins in my
> Lehigh-valley watching childhood, but was
> too impressed by Snowbirds to notice
> something indistinguishable from any other
> switcher for a sub 10 year old to notice.

I believe Allen-Sherman-Hoff sold the rights to GE not too long ago. I worked at an ASH authorized repair shop 1978 - 82. We did fuel injection, Woodward governors and Elliott turbos. The Bosh injectors were obsolete then although tips could be scared up. Engine heads and radiators were reworked by another local shop in Oakland. What few probably realize is that there were a ton of BLW diesel engines (not locos) purchased by the Government when the TVA project was built. TVA was the biggest source of BLW work during my time at that shop.

> This is a primary factor. Also, the bigger
> Baldwins were among the first of the diesel
> types to be eliminated by railroads after
> the company's failure, since there would
> then be a lack of parts and support.
> Strictlt speaking, Baldwin never got to make
> anything that would be considered
> "second generation", unlike Alco.

Before the Baldwin designed locomotive was killed, the Lima Hamilton design was killed. There were many less LH engines made than Baldwin. I believe, when the BLH merger happened the LH design was dropped for the "superior" Baldwin designs. Luckily a few (very few) of the Pre-merger Lima Hamiltons survive. Two are operational at the Whitewater Valley Railroad in Indiana.

Either builder is a testiment to the quality of Westinghouse electrical gear.

Ryan

lima709@aol.com

Interesting post as most people in preservation seem to think that the Westinghouse system, Baldwins and Lima Hamiltons are bad, don't run well, or have any number of other uninformed comments. Really, most people just don't have any clue as they haven't run, worked on, or are even familiar with these engines. One EMD fellow still curses his museum's VO Baldwin convinced that the 606 must be as bad.

I still recall a funny thing at a seminar on 92 day inspections at IRM a few years ago when the centercab Baldwin being used. The seminar kept concentrating on the frail nature of EMDs and all the things you have to check and keep up on (lead readings, water leaks, etc.). I then asked if they did all that on the Baldwin and they said, no it just fires up and you use it!

In my opinion, the key is that we are forgetting that the railroads and builders were businesses first. Lima Hamilton (and Baldwin to some degree) offered switchers that used newer designs and quality components, but at a price. An Alco S-1 or even S-2 was a cheaper alternative and even though it used an older prime mover design, it was a known product. With the very real problems that Baldwin had with the VO, I'm surprised how many railroads gave the 606 models a chance at all. They had been bitten by Baldwin once and this experience had to a factor to shy away from purchases in the same way the 244 was to Alco a little later.

Small fleet buyers seem to be the right ones for Baldwins and the other small builders where the same people worked on and maintained a single, pair, or trio of engines. I also suspect that the book and use performance was easily as good and perhaps better than the GM choice and for many of them the benefits of EMD were fewer if at all. If you don't have other brands and models, who cares if the parts order is sent to Philadelphia, LaGrange, or even Beloit for that matter. The former Supt. of the Crane Naval Base locomotive shop was an FM experieceded man who told me that he really thought the 606's were very good, the FM's a bit of a pain, the VO's terrible (even with the conversion kits) and the EMDs a reasonable compromise, though somewhat fragile. He was perplexed when one museum picked a VO from his fleet for preservation, he figured that they didn't understand why it (often) had a newly rebuilt prime mover!

Big Railroads knew that GM could deliver products that were standardized regardless of use, A 567 piston is a 567 piston in an E or an SW, right? Specialized builders like Baldwin and Lima were just starting to figure out how this kind of thing worked. Of the four Lima-Hamiltons I've worked with, all seem to have differences and sometimes improvements that show that they were still "in development" and assembled one by one. Just as any machine, to get good results mechanics had to be trained and familiar with the equipment. The FM's, Baldwins, and Lima's were the fewest of the fleets and that made them different. As the fllet started to shrink you can be sure that they did not receive the same treatment by mechanics and crews as newer and more familiar designs.

Another factor seemingly forgotten by many of us is the "Eddystone Millstone" that was a serious cost Baldwin and later BLH. The complex was supposed to be the production line of steam locomotives and still had to be paid off when the steam orders were slow in the 30's and dried up in the 40's. This cash drain had to have a very real effect on new product development.

I sometimes wonder what might have happened if the BLH merger had not happened. Lima had some big orders on the books for its switchers from the Southern Pacific when the merger happened and little debt load. Given that Lima had good control of costs, no significant facility costs, had lived reasonably well through lean times, and even had a somewhat diversified product line, it might have hung around quite a while. Still, they might have exited the locomotive market when Westinghouse dropped out unless they had taken over the manufacture of the electrical gear. In the end, that seems to have been the recipe for existence, be your own electrical supplier.

A final thought is from one of the posts mentioning parts. Where do you get them? If you own a Lima, the answer is to use what you have and make what you don't. Where do you get parts for a steam engine, a player piano, or a steam calliope! It's the same answer. I will say though that supplies of 606 engine parts seem to be easier to find than many may think, you just need to make some calls from the Pocket List.

David Farlow

Hudson.Industries@worldnet.att.net

> A final thought is from one of the posts
> mentioning parts. Where do you get them? If
> you own a Lima, the answer is to use what
> you have and make what you don't. Where do
> you get parts for a steam engine, a player
> piano, or a steam calliope! It's the same
> answer. I will say though that supplies of
> 606 engine parts seem to be easier to find
> than many may think, you just need to make
> some calls from the Pocket List.

> David Farlow

I just read a post on another board where the gentleman states that the US NAVY loves FM diesels, uses many of them, and few problems!

Player piano parts I can get but nobody makes a compressor sheave for a Quincy model 370 air compressor that is cut for "C" belts and this venerable piece of antiquity was produced in 1985 !


lamontdc@adelphia.net