Mr. Lathrop hit the nailo n the head here. In my limited experience over the past 20 years (gee, has it really been that long) the biggest barriers haven't been class, race, religion or even gender. Instead, the barrier is one of knowledge.

One organization I was involved with for a long time had a problem that the people than ran things, were not good at passing down information. They wanted to monopolize knowledge, and as such, saw many new members as threats, best disposed of through menial work lest they become some sort of "threat." I sorted screws for a long time, too young and dumb to get the hint. Now, when I visit, I notice many of the members have gotten older with few young members around. The knowledge will die, which is very sad.

While you don't give new volunteers the keys to the whole place, after they have "proven themselves" you should be inclusive. Our biggest endagered aspect of railway preservation is the loss of knowledge by failing to engage the younger generation as part of plan to ensure that our organizations continue long past our own short lives.

As for IC382, I'm sorry you have had a bad experience. In my personal experience, I've seen people of all types involved in railway preservation, from different backgrounds, beliefs and walks of life. What binds us together is our common interest, despite our other differences. While lunch conversations may turn political, they are always lively and friendly.

Steve: Thanks for the link. You certainly know what I'm talking about with all of this.

Dave: The generation has an incredibly short attention span due to the environment they have been brought up in. Getting them to read is probably the biggest hurdle I have to overcome. If it is boring or appears long, they won't read it, plain and simple. This is directly linked to the way they communicate. Nobody writes letters anymore. Few write emails. They communicate it short (usually 140 characters or less) telegraph like communications. No compound sentences or correct grammar, never mind punctuation or capitalization.

You know, I was thinking about this topic more driving to work this morning. Yea, the current generation has its issues but they are not the root of the problem. Trains don't hold the same draw they did forty or fifty years ago. Think of it this way - why do people collect vintage cars? Primarily because of the nostalgia. It was their first car or the their dream car. The same premise is true of trains. Frankly, I grew up in a world of F40s and P32s. I was fortunate to remember the last days of the FL-9s but that's really it. My desire to see a Pullman heavyweight restored is more about preserving a piece of our cultural fabric. My point is, the current generation doesn't ride trains and therefore could care less. They have no bearing on their existence. Why, then, should we expect them to spontaneously decide they wish to fix an old train? It would be like me saying, "I want to join a museum that preserves horse-drawn carriages."

That is an interesting question you ask...would you or wouldn't you hire someone...knowing they were the best fit...but that you didn't agree with something about their person?

I know that in my case...I would not have been hired in the first place had organization XYZ had a clue they would later personally disagree with me. Fortunately, the very reason they wouldn't have hired me...is the very reason a Fortune 500 company snapped me up and pays me a lot more money than anyone at XYZ organization makes. Really too bad for XYZ, as my talents would have served them extremely well.

People shouldn't be judged by their appearance/beliefs...they should be judged by what they leave behind and the content of their character.

If you look up "Tattoo removal" on Google, you'll get 11,000,000 matches. There's a reason for that. I used to do tattoos for a while once I was done with art school. I talked more people out of it than I pulled out the gun to do the job for them.That might be because the majority of younger people don't have piercings or markings, much like the older generation lacks them as well.
In fact, these kids of things are falling out of favor. Laser clinics can't keep up with the demand for the people who got all inked up when they were young but now are finding difficulty finding better jobs or meeting a better group of people to settle down with while they have ink.
It is clearly more aceptable in mainstream than it used to be, but it still ain't there at all. Plenty of people will find it hard to trust someone who's inked or pinned up and many employers won't touch them. I've sat in interviews where someone was inked up and after they left, we'd toss their resume out. I think many people still think that someone who's all inked up probably has decision issues. Whether that's fair or not can be argued either way.
Look at it this way if you can be honest with yourself; you have a teenage daughter with a high IQ and prospects for a very fulfilling life. She brings home two different boys on different weekends:
-One looks like he stepped out of a Norman Rockwell painting, very well groomed.
-The other has tats all up and down his arms
On thos merits alone, no father is going to chose the guy with the tats.
I'm not saying why it is, but you'd have to really be living with blinders on not to see it is, anyway.

As I have hired individuals over the years...I will admit...body piercings, other than the ears, have been hard for me to visually look at and take seriously...but tattoos...it has been a toss up.

I have hired the Norman Rockwell guys...and they mostly were arrogant, womanizing, and wanted to know how much, how much time off, what perks do I get, and how much can I get away with? I have hired the guys with tattoos...although to be fair...most of them didn't reveal them in the interview...and honestly many of them worked really hard to be the best. Maybe they were that good, or maybe they were trying to overcome some kind of narrow-minded stereotyping? I don't know?

But, in either case, there were winners and losers. Each person will perform according to their gifts. The people that want to work will and the ones that don't work will fall off the wagon.

I try to be completely objective...so that I don't miss out on something wonderful.

As a bit of young blood with ink myself, I'd like to throw my two cents in:

First, I'm baffled by the fact that someone having tattoos automatically means they have no foresight. I have two that I had the foresight to place in such an area that they are easily hid, even in short sleeves. My next one is being planned for with the same consideration.

Second, I don't understand why you can't come to a compromise with someone with tattoos that are otherwise agreeable - why not say, "Okay, you can work for me, but when you're in the eye of the public, you'd better have them covered." Obviously, these don't work so well for tattoos on the face and sometimes the neck, but I'm sure you understand what I mean. I suppose a similar agreement could be made about certain piercings, just as several employers already do. Again, this wouldn't work in every situation, but it's a suggestion.

Third, have you seen the prices for safe tattoo removal? That's insanely expensive, and someone who may have once "wasted" money on a tattoo when they were younger may not be able to afford one now for whatever reason.

A further question for everyone who seems to be vehemently opposed to tattoos - what would you do if you hired someone, found them to be an excellent worker and a great person, but then discovered they had tattoos that were, like mine, hidden under most circumstances? Would you fire him on the spot simply for having them? What if someone gets a tattoo after being employed under similar circumstances? Are you going to ostracize them simply because they did something you don't agree with that doesn't affect their work performance?

I realize I'm risking my career a bit here, but I think I can safely say I wouldn't fit in to such a puritan community anyway.

Zak raises an interesting issue I hadn't thought of, as did Becky. I should have qualified my " no piercings" was for males only, females expected to have provisions for ear rings.

As for Zak's point I guess the only way we'll be able to know with new hires ( males) is to ask the question on the application....do you have tatooes anywhere on your body? If they do and answer no and are subsequently found to have lied then yes they would be ternminated immediately. If they answer yes and the tat is such that it can't be seen when the individual is dressed we would not hire them.

No tats,no piercings, no victims......not negoitable.

Ross Rowland

I have the utmost respect for the points of view of everyone...even when I don't agree. I can see Ross's point of view. Ethics are very important, in any line of work.

I disagree on your point of males with piercings.

I don't particularly care for a guy who wears piercings. I just think it looks silly. However, I hired a new employee (ex-army) this January that just came back from Afghanistan (sp)...and he has his ears pierced. I don't really care for his diamond earrings...but he has made my team ALOT of money this 1st quarter. His earrings have nothing to do with his ability to secure new business...and yes...he wears them even in presentation mode...again, I don't like...but as long as the money comes in...I will not complain.

I firmly believe that many of the social items, ad infinitum...are generational. Railroad preservation primarily is focused on keeps a specific moment in the past alive. Every railroader that I am friends with...all under 40...chat on Facebook, have tattoos, like to go out to clubs when they can...drink...cuss...and experiment with whatever. I have friends that work for all the big 4 and 2/3 of the metro commuter railroads. All these guys...run counter to O. Winston Link's photos of classic railroaders.

Does the counter-classic culture behavior and lifestyle mean they are any less of a railroader? Probably not...

"On thos merits alone, no father is going to chose the guy with the tats."

Mr. Bishop, speak for yourself. Your pre-judgment does not reside in every father.

Mr. Rowland, if you asked me if I had any tattoos, I would tell you it's none of your business. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't allow you the opportunity to employ me... and I have neither piercings nor tattoos.

Nice to know judgmental bigotry is alive and well in the United States.

Oh, wait. No, it's not nice.

A dress code for dealing with the public is one thing. Ross Rowland is not in charge of "team casting" at Disney World, nor at a bank or station counter or restaurant or for a passenger car conductor, in this hypothetical example.

There are people out there I would take a bullet for, who would probably do the same for me, who would help me move (bodies?), fix my car, bail me out, whatever. Some of them have tattoos. In fact, one happens to be a nationally-known tattoo artist. And some of the biggest jerks I know don't have any tattoos.

And I've worked (and still work) with folks that are the polar opposite of me, politically, religiously, and/or philosophically, on "bigger goal" projects like music festivals, craft beer festivals, and museum and library projects. I've worked with card-carrying Communists and even a "Wobblie," and my political views are pretty much polar opposite to theirs. So what the heck does that have to do with how well they can play the fiddle or bouzouki or brew a stupendous saison?

Just keep typing, Rowland. We can pass as much judgement as you can. But we'll have much better justification.

And that pretty sums up why this area of preservation is full of senior citizens complaining about the lack of youth while simultaneously discriminating against it.

actually, I am probably.younger than you are. I am nowhere a senior citizen.
Go ask any HR rep for any major company. You won't like what they'll tell you.
Just because you don't like the reality, it doesn't make it any.less real...

The U. S. Navy allows new recruits to come in the Navy with tattoos as long as they do not depict/glorify drugs or have "special" meanings related to gang or hate groups. Off-duty sailors, female AND male, can wear piercings as long as they are not worn on base or in a manner which would bring discredit to themselves or the Navy.

As stated before, I have no tattoos and I have no piercings. I did, however, put my life on the line in defense of the Constitution of the United States of America - for 26 years and 3 days.

Growing up where I did, when I did, being raised by those who raised me, and associating with the people I did, I developed a very narrow and unrealistic view of the world and the human beings who occupy it.

Those 23+ years of putting my life in others' hands, and having theirs in mine gave me a very different perspective on human life and affected how I now treat others.
If you would refuse a job to someone who defended the Constitution and protected your security over tattoos and earrings - you are just an ungrateful POS that doesn't rate to carry my lunch box or clean my head. It's not that anybody OWES me a job or something like that, all I would expect is reciprocity of the respect that I give them.

To follow up with my earlier point, lack of free time is a major issue for those in the 23-39 crowd that precludes participation in rail preservation as well as the other lamented groups mentioned here.

As for discrimination, I would like to offer up time and participation discrimination. I personally experienced this at the ripe age of 21-22. I spent some time as a volunteer at a non-profit tourist railroad that will remain anonymous. I found a way to fit this in while attending college full time and working full time at another tourist railroad (that paid me btw...). Any-who, my time at the anonymous railroad was on occasion and not that often. It was my belief that they should have appreciated what time I was able to provide/donate. During my time in attendance at the anonymous railroad, I made sure to work...work...work...without wasting daylight. However, I instead had to listen to all kinds of smack from the gossip channel at that road about how little time I was providing in comparison to other participants. Anytime spent educating me was met with resentment from the isolated core people who, for lack of a better term, didn't have a life. Needless to say, the moment this was brought to my attention I picked up and never returned. Save the drama for your mamma boys!

Zak:

"First, I'm baffled by the fact that someone having tattoos automatically means they have no foresight."

I was being somewhat hyperbolic, but think about it. Your skin will not always be smooth and taut. I see a lot of guys with "barbed wire" tattoos on the upper arm, because I think they imagine their arm looks like Ahnuld's. In any case, most guys eventually give up the gym, long before they are forced to. When you can't get pumped up and your return to being a puny girly man, then what? You have no foresight if you spend money to put your "art" on an unstable canvas.

Of course tattoos are no where are ridiculous as those disks that inserted into earlobes.


IC382:

"I should clarify...depending on where your organization exists...you may find that the W.A.S.P. comment isn't warranted...however..in some locations...the P. part in particular...is a big wall for some youth to climb over."

That's not a clarification, it's a reversal. Your prior statement was a universal, and any exception to a universal is its nullification.

"Since I am progressive in my social views, don't attend church, and in general don't agree with ANYTHING conservative...my tenure in preservation lasted a too short 3 years."

The very fact that you announce this here, tells me you made it an issue there.

"The funny part is...I was so eager to work with "railroad men"...what a let down. In order to join the club I had to act, behave, and believe the same as the rest of the herd. Believing in unicorns, pots-of-gold, and judgement from the clouds doesn't work for me. As a young man, I chose to walk my own path, and be my own man."

Were you this snide, provocative and contentious there, because for all of your declarations of irreligiosity, this smells an awful lot like a martyr complex or some badly plagiarized Rush (the Canadian Rock group) lyrics.

"Give up my personal viewpoint? No thank you...I will suffice to watch trains run from my nonjudgmental pickup."

Somehow I doubt you had to "give up" your personal viewpoint, rather to just check it at the door for the sake of involvement. All groups have norms, and while it is of no consequence if you can't do it at your avocation, it is if you can't at your vocation.

At your job, you might have to be conversant with football, even if you've long determined that it is ridiculous to have an interest you can't participate in much past high school, unless you are unlucky enough to be blessed with the physical skills to play in college or beyond, where the barbarity is overwhelming. Worse, you might find yourself in an office full of Steelers and Ravens fans, when your almost exhausted loyalties lie in Philadelphia. So you give those teams their due and move on.

So you sit in your pickup and ACCOMPLISH nothing outside of having fits of vanity. Of course sitting in your pickup will preclude ever crossing paths with anything that might adjust your worldview or your certitude. I wish I had a penny for every person whose politics changed when they started filing a Schedule C or started thinking about their daughter hanging out with guys like they used to be.

I note nothing you said here supported your original thesis, especially the part about ALL rail preservation organizations being provinces of discrimination. Not agreeing with the your worldview does not make somebody racist.