This was getting so hot of late that I wasn't going to say anything, but then this turned up (on a high-speed rail site, no less--surprising how many of that crowd are steam fans). It's a video on what would be our monthly boiler washouts in Great Britain (and with a BR Class 5, no less--actually a similar but different animal from the LMS Black 5)--and take note of the shed employee at 16:00! Tattoos on both arms, one looking like a navy thing on the left, (it has what looks like an anchor in it), and a "nudie cutie" on the right. Whooee!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcstP4bXtaE

Looks like there is some tradition for that art, at least in Great Britain. . .

EDIT: Forget it. It's obvious those with ill thoughts about people with tattoos aren't going to have their minds changed, especially by those with, so I'm just going to back out.

Ross Rowland,

There is "young blood" out there. I'm in my mid-20s, and I'm a restoration volunteer at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, MO. I've volunteered there for over 1 1/2 years, and I really hope it will never end. That being said, I'd love to help on a restoration of a steam locomotive to operation, and that doesn't look very likely at MoT. Still, I love being able to help upkeep/cosmetically restore the steam locomotives and rolling stock. I have said several times that if they would offer me a paid position there for restoration work, I'd never look for another job. Steam locomotives are my biggest passion, hands down.

Anyway, getting back to the original point of this post, there is "young blood" out there. It's just that, maybe, it might be a little harder to get the younger generation, who is interested in steam/the history of the railroad, to get out there and get involved. It's not impossible, clearly, but it just might be a little more difficult.

Don't give up on us just yet. We're still out there.

Sincerely,
Chris Hohl

I'll chime in...

I am 37 years old and have been gainfully employed for nearly 17 years on the railroad. I have a few years of steam experience. I have been a roadforeman, rules examiner, train dispatcher, engineer, and conductor. All of this time has been worked injury free with no accidents.

I am involved with the 2926 and 5000 restoration efforts.

With my experience, would you really let a simple thing like a little ink in my skin cloud your judgement of my professional abilities?

Yeah, all of which is complete horsepuckey. As is everything else.

The problem is, minds. The purpose of the mind is to make distinctions. And minds do that all day and can't be stopped. (try it: for a measly 5 minutes, quiet your mind. Think no thoughts. Can't do it can you?) So your mind is compulsively differentiating, discriminating in fact. All too easily that turns into prejudice, petty politics and bullying. For the undisciplined, that's the order of the day! Their chattering mind comes up with all this bull, which they treat as fact because the thought arose for THEM! It seems as real as steel and they act like it is.


WASP? Ha. Try being even a suspected LIBERAL at some places. They subtly slip a political cue, coded in a way that welcomes a fellow neocon to speak up. If you do so, you pass the litmus test and you get to be one of the boys. If you stay silent, there'll be an awkward silence, your fault by the way, and you remain an unknown quantity. A few more tests and they'll kinda give up and decide that whatever you are, you're not one of them. At worst they may start subtly driving you away.

You know the signaling I'm talking about. Once in awhile, somebody tries it right here on RyPN.

Look, I'm not saying they're doing it intentionally, or even all that consciously. (though, like the landlord who mysteriously never has managed to pick a single mom for a tenant, it certainly works in their favor, so no reason to change, they are not even slightly innocent.) Seriously, they're not down in their underground lair practicing their evil laugh. The same can be said of the intruder: the butch lesbian just thought it would be cool to work on a locomotive, and isn't there to challenge anyone's conceptions. Nonetheless, these effects are 100% real and extremely powerful. I mean totally powerful, if it wasn't, we'd be a lot more diverse.

Sure, many museums are not so openly political "closed clubs", but don't you dare tell me that it's an accident that there are virtually no blacks, women, asians and numerous other races and subcultures. The present, dominantly WASP members DO react to them, that is a fact, and that DOES have a social effect, notably that they turn heel, or more likely are not recruited in the first place. That's not only a social force, it's a damn powerful one. You're not going to defeat it by going "la la la".

But then, like I say, maybe you don't really wanna.

But the same thing happens anywhere. Dump 100 random people in a lounge with no chairs, and watch people self-select, as the birds of a feather come together. Retirees, parents, young girls, Spanish speakers... language is a strong grouper. Same thing happens at your volunteer mixer - there's the operators, the shop guys, the archive guys, the wives... not much mixing.

How do we solve it? The only thing that makes sense to me is to have a strong volunteer/docent program, where volunteers are handled according to specific standards and with well-defined programs, tiers of qualification, etc. You can't stop idle minds from discriminating, but you can at least create better things to discriminate on, such as "docent, level 2, steam".

RMcD: No "like" button available, but would if I could. As far as groups this happens in, it's not just railroad related. Believe me. I think culture, available free-time, and disposable income are huge factors.

Really, folks. I think we're blowing the issue of discrimination way out of proportion.

Sure, it's undesirable, and it happens, and some organizations may be as bad as described. I haven't personally met with anything quite so disastrous, so I can't really say. What I can say, however, is that we shouldn't really debate the morality of tattoos or whatnot, but take this moment for some serious introspection about our own organizations.

For the record, I'm one of those "young blood" folks. Plus, I live in Utah, where the stereotype (rather unfounded, I'm glad to say) would call for some serious discrimination, yet I've never experienced any other than from one individual who openly mocked my chosen religion simply because he was an atheist. I ignored him; eventually he gave it up. Race, gender, religion, etc. has never been an issue in the organizations here in Utah that I have been involved with. What does matter are the skills someone (and anyone) can bring to the table. And if you don't have skills, they'll teach you skills.

Bottom line, don't let people be a representation of the entire organization, or even the Railway Preservation community as a whole. People are people. They can be stupid (in our eyes); we can be stupid too. If it's really bad, move on. Find somewhere else to devote your time and skills, but don't just "give up" forever like taking your ball home because you don't want to play.

Thank you,

Joshua Bernhard

As with most things, making a blanket appraisal of tattoos, either good or bad, is pure folly.

As you mention, with service men of a certain age, they're a badge of honor for a life changing experience.

I personally know people who have tats as a memorial to a lost loved one. Another has a tat to celebrate her sobriety, and adds something each year to celebrate. Another person I know has a target tattoo on his neck, in honor of, well, his less than stellar record of dealings with the police regarding his life choices.

Just about everyone knows some ladies who have a butterfly above their butt, just because, well, everyone else has one...

Can you lump all of those choices together? I don't think so...

"Your opinions of people with tattoos are short sighted, but I'll give you this, they are your own."

On the contrary, they are most decidely not. You may not like them, but "short sighted" is not the proper adjective since I'm basing it on a view of the future.

I have been a gym rat for a long time, and I've seen plenty of old dudes and dudettes sporting ink. It just isn't pretty, unless you really, really like Salvador Dali.

My wife is an RN, so I know that Hep C is catastrophic illness. I'm not taking ANY marginal risk with regard to hepatic disease.

With regard to others, I generally don't care as long as it isn't "excessive".

What I find fascinating is the REACTION.

To avoid addressing anybody here, I'll tell you of an incident that happened a couple years ago. I took my then 4 1/2 year old niece to a certain museum in Scranton, and then to the food court overlooking it. As we waited in line, she began to stare, and stare intently as I placed the order and paid for it. As I turned around to see what got her attention, I noticed this guy with tatoos on his face, pierced eye brows and earlobe discs.


I heard the following:

"Sir could you ask your little girl not to stare?" But he looked HER in the eye.

THAT pi**ed me off. NOBODY goes after her. NOBODY, not even in a lower order primate sort of way.

My answer completely caught him off guard. I said "look dude, you wanted attention, you got it. She's doing what comes naturally, and if you think for a minute I'm going to lecture her on your behalf, you're nuts. Now go away before we have a problem".

She still talks about that day and still refers to that guy in the most dismissive terms, even though she's way past the "Chuckie Cheese" stage.

If you think the judgment of the last generation is harsh, wait until the next generation comes along. Every generation thinks it will have the last word. Wrong.

Howards statements Are Very True And Completely Identifiy with them,

as my first second fourth or fifth visit, I came in at 18 with a pair of shorts and flip flops perhaps a surfboard or two, (ehh yup - lights on no one home)

but in the fall of 88 the day after my birthday I was lucky enough to see what this was all about on the railran day in essex,

"I was Hooked", however even being a kid I already Knew I would take alot of crap from the senior membership but Like howard has stated, if one fit doesn't work move along to the next,

problem is these days young men and women are cuddled by there parents in some cases straight through college, and in others they don't know who at least one of there parents are, its a society issue here,

great emphisis needs to be placed on developing young blood and letting them find there path, encourage that path and prepare these kids for a strong self with better interaction with unlike minds

My college proffessor said to my class "you can be the smartest person in the world but you will not make a worth of dam difference if you cannot read a person and communicate on his level", Not everyone is a rocket scientist and not everyone is a Welder, when dealing with newer membership they should be encouraged, not degraded, and I have felt degraded more than once within our organization, however, I have a thick spine and a desire to keep the ball rolling to share with the world our vision (whichever vision it is this year)

its 20 times easier to discourage someone (pack up and gone home never to return)or even overwhelm someone in this type of field than it is to find someone that can give the commitment and stick around

If you have Volunteers with diegrinders and paintbrushes by all means share the enthusiasm and teach and not belittle the effort watch what you say and how you say it, "thats a message to all of you crotchity B-st-rds on here", simply because since its not a paid job, funny enough those youngsters will go home and play with there computers instead or giving you a hand

instead of you helping to teach themselves a bit of self reliance/can do! and a little self worth, as well as a sence of community and help the group achive its goals,

all the reasons we do what we do---- "Teach it not Preach it"

"As you mention, with service men of a certain age, they're a badge of honor for a life changing experience."

My Great-Uncle was among those stormed Tarawa and a variety of other South Pacific shooting galleries, finishing his all expenses paid tour with a stay in Hiroshima in September 1945. He had an anchor on his forearm. Well into his sixties, he looked like Popeye.

When I asked him about it, he kind of laughed. I suppose his experiences gave him a little reflection and an ability to laugh at himself. I suspect he'd laugh at a lot of things, if he were still with us. I guess if you can withstand machine gun fire and radiation, your ego toughens up just a little.

Semper Fi, Stephen K.

Judging by the comments and posts you've made in the past 382, I think your attitude is piss-poor. IMHO I think it is your worst enemy and that you fit quite well into the arrogant young-person stereotype that turns off a lot of the elders you despise so passionately. I'm also going to say that instead of harboring such a hateful grudge against the elders of whatever alleged organizations you belonged to, did you ever stop to think that maybe you were approaching situations in a manner such that it would eventually cause a hostile working/social environment for yourself? There are NO roadblocks for younger volunteers/people interested in rail preservation. The only roadblock for younger people are themselves and themselves alone. If you go gallivanting off wanting to join an organization just because you wanna play choo-choo and go home without having an interest/respect for the equipment or those that keep it going, you will be met with nothing but harsh sentiment every time, I promise you. Don't blame the older guys for that, that's all you.

I've been involved with many different organizations in my time and yes, there are always those (especially volunteer) that will go to great lengths to disagree/prove you wrong just because they don't like you. The key, however, is knowing how to deal with these individuals (or avoid them) so that you can still enjoy what you're doing to contribute to the good of the organization. If you're a young buck looking to get involved with some sort of rail preservation organization or just any organization, don't let people steer you away. Look past it, be the better man. You must understand, respect is not given to you younger guys, you've got to earn it however that may be. If, for example, they give you some arbitrary task or "glory work" as I referred to it in my day, just do it and do it with a smile on your face. You'll be amazed how far that goes with the elders. They're looking for a work ethic, a dedicated interest, a POSITIVE ATTITUDE, a good head on your shoulders and lastly, that you're not part of that "young-person" stereotype that exemplifies neither of those qualities. Once that pass that little test, then maybe you'll find yourself being trained to do other more meaningful tasks that you may have a forte/interest in. If nothing else, perhaps they'll even treat you as you want to be treated and you'll find out that they're not all out to get you.

Take it or leave it,
DC




Won't be long for this thread to be locked...

Well, glad we solved the problem of the lack of young blood in the rail preservation world. Keep fighting about superfluous topics guys...you're merely rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Before this thread gets locked, I'd like to point out one thing:

The person who made the original anti-tattoo/piercing remark isn't in charge of anything (at least until certain "over-regulation" issues are resolved). He is not, to my knowlege, a director or in a policy making role at a railroad museum. In fact, I don't think anyone here who posted as part of the no-tattoo and piercing crowd, who is a decision maker, would turn away help if one was tattooed and/or pierced.

While the Pontiff of Pottstown can decree all he wishes, I doubt many of us would or should turn down younger help when offered.

If you intereact with the public, that's a different issue for a differnt discussion.

Just my two cents...

Actually, I think the positives in this thread vastly outweigh any negatives. I am very unlikely to lock it, though I would gently remind: please keep it civil?