First, help me understand where the ~$200K estimate just for the move came from:

You list $22,000 for the cost to lift the engine in Illinois. I presume that is to place the engine and tender on flat cars - correct? If so, why do you need to repair the rails at the current location? Why not leave the flat car on the nearest live rail - which doesn't appear to be too far away - and use the crane company to move the engine there?

Once on the flat cars, what will your cost be to move them to Cleveland? Have the railroads said you need a special train or other special handling for them? If not, I would anticipate the cost being $2,000 or so per railroad per flatcar, and it looks like you need 2 or 3 railroads to get to Cleveland. And when the engine arrives in Cleveland, just leave it on the flatcar until you are ready to work on it.

If you are faced with a move-it-or-bust situation, I think you could get this move done for far less than $200K, which would put it much more in your budget.

That said, if you are going to restore this engine to operation, I would think $200K would be small change. How much have you restored to date?

Chris.

Chris,

Thanks for the comments. I'll try and answer them as best I can:

1. There is but one track from the I&M enginehouse to the interchange with NS. The lift has to be done on the I&M track and hope to do it as close to the grade crossing as possible. This track has had no maintenance work in close to 20 years so tie conditions are not that good. We cannot do the lift on the NS interchange track as it is too close to the mainline. We are actively working on getting the track repairs wittled down to only what is necessary and hope to limit it to the shortest length of track necessary up to where we make the pick and set the pieces on the flat cars.
2. We just got word from the serving RR that they will make the one-time move for us without charging us anything for any trackwork on the interchange track. That just knocked out $25,000.00 we had plugged in for that item.
3. Since we are renting the cars, we need to get the engine and tender unloaded as soon as it arrives in Cleveland in order to release the cars back to the owner.
4. Regarding the cranes and rigging, we have yet to find one vendor who will provide both services under one roof, so to speak, so we have crane fees and rigging fees at each end of the move.

So, we are beating up the cost as we speak and will keep everyone updated as things progress. Again, thanks to everyone's input so far.

Rob Gardner

There may be costs involved with ownership of the flat cars and the track and land they are left on.

Jim and group,

You are correct. We will not be the owners of the cars when this takes place and since they are speciality cars due to the weight of the locomotive and tender you can not hold them hostiage for a long time without racking up charges far greater then doing the move.

All of us have to understand the management and property in which 1352 resides has changed since going from it current ownership to a new set of owners. Just like with the Brooklyn roundhouse a date has been set in which we have to move to out of the facility and there is no way of changing the minds. I have no power to change there mandate other then hustle to make it happen for them.

Purchasing the land it sits on is not viable as some suggested as you spend $$ just making that happen and hope you can get your money back right away.

People have asked is there plan and yes this part of the plan is to relocate the locomotive to a home where it can be worked on and where it has the greatest potential to run.

Last but not least is people seem to be blown away by the costs of the move. Our numbers have been vetted by folks who are in the steam business full time and all of the numbers line up to what they would expect to pay if they were doing the move themselves.

I guess maybe folks have not share in the past what it takes to move a locomotive so this would be sticker shock to some on this board. The numbers we are working off of are real quotes from real companies. I have file folder just for 15 crane companies for Taylorville area and all of them come in about the same price range no matter if the person is 50 minutes away or 2 hours away.

Since this about sharing the facts here is one you can't get away with is the cranes. It takes 2 (200 ton) cranes to lift 1352. She is 322,600lbs as she sits right now. So why (2) of them instead of one monster. Because the 2 smaller cranes cost less then one big 350 ton monster. The bigger the crane the more parts and transporation charge you'll get to bring it to the site. Here some facts that maybe folks who do not know about the crane rental industry might find interesting and eductional on why this move costs so much.

1. They charge by the hour as soon as the first wheel leaves the yard.
2. Depending on the size of the crane you might have at least 3 trucks per crane following that 1 crane to the site due to all of the counter weights and other parts needed at the site to assemble the crane before it can go to work.
3. You also need to pay for road permits and also a follow and leader trucks depending on the state your getting the crane from.
4. You'll at least burn 1 hour at the site waiting for the crane company to set up the cranes before they'll be ready to use. So you just sit and burn dollars because that is how it works.
5. Market will dictate what you'll pay for the cranes. So you can't base a quote in Ohio being the same cost for the same model and weight type of cranes in the Illinios or Missouri. If the market dictates in Ohio that you can get them for 450 /a hour as example it be 3 to 4 times that for the same cranes in a different market. May not like it but it how our society works on the making money side.

So there you go that is just part of the cost of making this a sucessful move. So start adding in transporation charges from Taylorville, track work as Rob pointed out the and reversing the process on the Cleveland side you spend lots of money very quickly.

Steven H.

Didn't some non-profit scenic railroad get over $200K of federal money for a GPS triggered narration system?... Just checked $350,000 Cuyahoga Valley Implements GPS Narration viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27567&hilit=GPS I even called it back then.

I tend to think this is a childish view. Did the group that owned the "rotting steam locomotive" compete for this money? If so, what kind of presentation did they put together? Business plan? Marketing plan?

The Monopoly Man is not showing up at your museum, dropping off money. Organizations that give grants want assurances that their money will be well spent.

Professionalism is how you get this. Sitting around and whining about other groups/causes getting money that you should get isn't going to get you anywhere.

This was not the monopoly man, this was uncle Sam.
And being so I have every right to complane if my tax dollers go towards a $350'000 gps system or $5,000 toylet seat.

Yeah but that's a different rant. In context, your rant was "why a PA system and not a chooch". Show me a supposed "small government" guy and I'll show you someone all too happy for the government to spend money on HIS pet projects. Even the Libertarians are in favor of government providing free roads (while being against transit because it's not "self-sufficient".)


Anyway, WIlkins answered the context with "professional management and the ability of the donor to trust the manager to deliver."

Unfortunately in Uncle Sam's case, one way they "trust" you to deliver is by requiring you to use gold-plated contractors who guarantee results. Which is how PA systems become $350,000. As we well know, that requirement does not have that effect. And that's why I'm not a fan of it.

This registered Libertarian replies: Now jes' a golly-durn minute here......

The roads are not "free." They're (supposed to be) paid for through the indirect "user fee" of vehicle fuel taxes. This Libertarian, and most like him, have no problem whatsoever with that concept; it's a lot easier than making every road a toll road. The problem is that politicians hesitate to raise the taxation rates to reflect inflation (five cents a gallon looked confiscatory when gas was 70 cents a gallon; we wouldn't even notice it now), and also tend to divert/"raid" the revenues raised to other "pet" projects whether transport-related or not.

We now return you to more accurate railfan rants.

Let's play a little thought experiment, shall we?

Let us use a subject near and dear to your heart, an MBTA F40PH. Why should I, as a taxpayer support MBTA giving away one to your group, so it can sit at the trolley museum in Shelburne Falls, when it probably has some resale value?

But we are getting far afield of the original subject here, plus I think I'm banging my head up against that cliché that Mr. MacDowell spoke of earlier.

Steven,

I am quite familiar with the 1352 and Taylorville as well. That loco has been through some rough times while there. I almost got talked into investing in it and its proposed operating plan once a upon a time right after it go there. Are all the parts still around? They were scattered to the wind some time back.

Anyway, back to the question at hand.

Have you looked at employee contribution matching corporate grants?

By that I mean you work for ABC corporation. You donate 10k to your favorite 501(c)3 organization and your employer ABC or their foundation will match it; some times dollar for dollar. You now have 20k. There are a lot of places that do this.

Some payout every quarter, some annually. It's a way to raise some cash fairly quickly. The key is working for a company that does such things. Get enough supporters to do the same thing and well you get the idea.

I haven't been to the Akron/Cleveland area in years (I grew up in Akron) so I don't know what corporations are there now where your members might work to look at possibilities.

Just an idea.
Bill

This concept was already stated in my post on the matter.

I guess I missed that in all lectures and such he was getting. Reading over your post where you mention the concept, you didn't say if you've used it or how successful you were with it.

Steven asked for what works and what doesn't. This concept has worked for us. It doesn't have to be major corps either. Some small outfits have the same things. Banks are required by law to reinvest in the community.

Bill

It works and has worked when there are members of an organization who are employed by large companies who will give matching donations. So, if a member gives $100, the employer will match it.

As for local Banks: Unless you are Habitat for Humanity or another institution helping the masses, local banks are very reluctant to donate to museums, and even more reluctant when it comes to historic preservation of a transportation artifact. Since the engine is going to another State, it becomes more difficult for an Illinois bank to donate.

The only other recourse would be for the 1352 group to establish a line of credit with an Ohio Bank to get the move completed. Funds already raised for the move could pay down the loan. Its difficult to get the line, but there may be an Ohio Bank sympathetic to the cause.

Thank for the matching suggestions. The large bank I work for does that but only up 1500.00 bucks. To get the real money from them is when the locomotive is in Cleveland and can be worked on. Every employee that works on the locomotive is worth 200 bucks per time you work on it and its unlimited.

So all of us on our board have taken advantage of our employee matching so far which has put a small dent in the over all bill but still will need outside help either in the form of people willing to donate, corporate sponsors, foundations and even grants.

I know our secretary of the group is looking at one of the crowd funding idea's given before and see what that could produce. There is no magical bunny out there I realize that but if 2K here, 3K there it can be done with fundraising you can get the end results pretty quick.

So onward we march to try to make the date.

Best Regards,

Steven M Harvey