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 Post subject: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:13 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I recently came across my 1977 Steam Passenger Service Directory, and out of curiosity, went through it, looking to see how much was still around, and how much has gone away.

One of the things that stood out is that much of what was around then is still with us today. Not all of it may be under the same corporate entity (i.e., the Silverton Branch is now Durango & Silverton), in some cases steam operation has ceased but the railroad still runs (Mount Washington Cog, Hocking Valley, Whitewater Valley), and of course some operations have died altogether (Trolleyville, Oregon Pacific & Eastern, and most recently, the East Broad Top). Some have gone the other way, expanding well beyond what was being done in 1977 (Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum was apparently operating its home trackage with a little 0-4-0T while glamour girl 4501 was out romping on SR, Cass Scenic now goes to an interchange with a former Western Maryland line that wasn't there before, and hosts connecting passenger trains to boot, and the former Silverton Branch now handles locomotives and trains it couldn't handle before).

How do the numbers actually look? Well, I was relying on memory for who was running and who wasn't, and in some cases I may have placed a railroad in a museum category (Boothbay), but of the 78 tourist roads and trolley lines as I counted them (note that), 60 are still around in one form or another, mostly still using the same equipment on the same rights of way, and most as the same corporate entity. Of the museums (which for this exercise was mostly non-operating properties), 20 of the 25 are still around, although one or two are now in new locations or are anticipating a move (Age of Steam in Dallas). Of the park trains in operation, 5 were counted, and all 5 are still around. The real losses are in clubs that were listed and sponsored main line excursions (North Alabama Railroad Club, which owned Mississippian Railroad 77 at the time, Atlanta Chapter NRHS, which is likely still around but, at least as far as I know, doesn't have the connection to the NS steam program it had then), and the Class I excursion operations themselves (Chessie System's program, British Columbia Railway, Clinchfield's runs with No. 1, and Bill Benson's Allegheny Railroad Company, which was running ex-Reading 2102); of the Class I operations around then, only Union Pacific's is still with us today, and maybe you could count the revival of the Norfolk Southern program too.

Overall survival rate of this particular sample of operational railroads and museums works out to 76.9% for tourist roads and trolley lines, 80% for museums, 100% for park trains, 0% for the clubs (which were tied to mainline excursion operations), and 28.5% for mainline operations themselves (and that counts the revived NS program).

This is not really a good sample--it's only for the properties running in one year that are still around today, and it doesn't count the operations that have started and succeeded (or failed) since then, and some of the categories are arbitrary. Some weren't counted at all because I didn't know if they were running or not (Lake Whatcom Railway in Wickersham, Wash., was one), but for all the shortcomings from limited material and limited ability (I'm just getting over a horrible cold and sinus infection), what conclusions can we draw?

Well, the first I would suggest is that if we can get an operation going at all, our odds seem to be better than for businesses as a whole, which seem to have about a 50% failure rate for the first year alone. (This is a very old statistic, and from what I understand, it may go back to the Civil War Era at least, when there wasn't anything like minimum wage, Social Security, Medicare, or Obamacare to worry about). As has been brought up before, operations on your own track greatly improve your odds of survival in that you don't have to depend on a potentially arbitrary and capricious management changing the rules on you, although even that is not always guaranteed (see what happened to the Kettle Moraine Railway).

It looks like several things that really stand out are location (Strasburg, Durango & Silverton, others), management that isn't about the big paycheck they want to bring home (thankfully there are but few exceptions to that rule, as in people whose egos were too big to allow their locomotives to be preserved, and in at least one case, to actually scrap an engine--Virginia Blue Ridge No. 7--just so no one else could run it), and the skill of the management and staff in total operations (including marketing), along with more than a bit of luck in being at the right place at the right time (try to acquire ex-steelworks 0-8-0s or recently retired heavyweight commuter cars today). The last one is pretty important, and makes you wonder if a Strasburg or a Durango & Silverton would be as successful as they have become if they started out later, or if they would even have a chance of starting today.

Anyway, those are my thoughts (coming out of the fog of sinusitis), and now, let us open the floor to discussion. In particular, are we really doing OK, particularly in regard to the competition from other activities, and are we doing OK in building up a new customer and worker base as older people retire or die? Are things as dire as we have sometimes feared, or are things worse than what we see?


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:47 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 6464
Location: southeastern USA
You mentioned how things have changed at successful operations - i think change is the key to continued prosperity.

It would be wise to consider than every closed operation isn't necessarily a failure. Some chose to close for good reasons. I think failure is not being willing to choose to close when it makes sense to do so, since by closing one declining operation you can reinvent or distribute assets to something that might be the next generation of success in its turn. Enterpreneurs like to "fail fast" so moving on to something potentially better happens before time and resources are wasted; this is kind of not represented here.......I wonder if it might be?

Regulatory compliance, whether it be health insurance, minimum wage, etc are simply figured in as part of what you do to do business at all - that's a red herring if there ever was one. It's easier to start a business in the US than almost anywhere else in the civilized world........which leaves a lot of opportunity, but that includes oportunity to be unsustainable. Worst mistake - doing what we want instead of what our customers would like us to do.

Last Sunday I worked at the New Hope Valley RR during the NC Science Festival - it was our day to demonstrate the Science of Trains. Attendance was high, weather was good, parking was free and plentiful, restrooms were portacabins, and our steam crew was about 70% 40 and under. I think what we're doing is working to serve the public that is our reason to exist, and seems to also appeal to potential workers in new generations. We have plans for building good restrooms and need to fund that to eliminate the worst visitor experience problem we have; we are actively working on Cliffside 110 in hope that it will be ready to replace little 0-4-0T 17 that's maxed out at 5 cars when 17 dies on the calendar in about 6 years. Funding that project will start this year; surveying, specification and design work are under way. This is proactive work towards change in ways that make sense for us, and interests our visitors.

We're not asking ourselves how we can continue to do just what we did in 1982 for as long as possible just the way we did it back then - who wants to die a slow tedious painful death?

Do good work and keep improving and always look for a better way to serve the public - or start planning for your closing now.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:06 pm 
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Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
I know of several operations in the South that existed in 1977 that don't anymore, just off the top of my head.
J3a-614 wrote:
Some weren't counted at all because I didn't know if they were running or not (Lake Whatcom Railway in Wickersham, Wash., was one)
Looking up the 'missing' lines like this is very easy online. For example, the RR you mentioned is indeed running (although I've never been there nor have talked with anyone who has, as it's off the beaten path): http://www.lakewhatcomrailway.com/
I'd argue that the day of guidebooks like this is being eclipsed as I type this. These days, with a cell phone with internet and a good connection, you don't need books like that anymore, certainly not like you'd have needed one in 1977.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:06 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
It's still hard to find a canonical list of heritage railways anywhere but those books. Of course the books are not nearly fully inclusive anymore, they've really slid since the old Steam Directory days. It's easy to fall out of it, and nobody cares, least of all if you're not buying advertising in sister publications. Which were priced absolutely out of this world for any but the GCRy/Durango/Steamtown type outfits. Oh well.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:44 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3011
J3a-614 wrote:
...78 tourist roads and trolley lines as I counted them...

This is not really a good sample--it's only for the properties running in
one year that are still around today, and it doesn't count the operations
that have started and succeeded (or failed) since then, and some of the
categories are arbitrary.


You've compiled some interesting data, and your approach is probably the best method you can use, given the lack of any central database, especially back then.

The one main problem that I see is that back in the 1970's not all operations were listed in the "Steam Passenger Service Directory" as I think it was called at that point. Listings cost money, and not everyone participated.

The most glaring example is Park Trains, obviously there were far more than 5 back then. The 5 in the directory as those that cared the most about promoting their operation and encouraging new customers.

The same, to a lesser extent, applies to the tourist railroads. I'm sure they weren't all in there, and the ones that weren't are also the ones that were most likely to be small and prone to failure.

For quite a few years I collected steam directories each year. I quit some time ago, buying them sporadically, once the info was readily available on the web and more frequently updated.

It would be interesting to find a complete collection someplace and chart the railroads through the years.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:40 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3011
robertmacdowell wrote:
It's still hard to find a canonical list of heritage railways anywhere but those books.


I maintain a large and fairly complete list on the web:
http://www.railroaddata.com/rrlinks/Tou ... d_Museums/

I'm certain it's not 100% accurate, things change frequently, operations come and go, etc. But it's reasonably up to date and a great place to start.

If you know of an operation that's not listed, please let me know and I'll add it!


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:47 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 333
Location: Los Altos, CA
p51 wrote:
I know of several operations in the South that existed in 1977 that don't anymore, just off the top of my head.
J3a-614 wrote:
Some weren't counted at all because I didn't know if they were running or not (Lake Whatcom Railway in Wickersham, Wash., was one)
Looking up the 'missing' lines like this is very easy online. For example, the RR you mentioned is indeed running (although I've never been there nor have talked with anyone who has, as it's off the beaten path): http://www.lakewhatcomrailway.com/
I'd argue that the day of guidebooks like this is being eclipsed as I type this. These days, with a cell phone with internet and a good connection, you don't need books like that anymore, certainly not like you'd have needed one in 1977.


I agree that with the Internet and a good search engine, the need for guidebooks in diminishing. That said, the Kalmbach "Tourist Trains Guidebook" is pretty comprehensive. its 4th edition is just out.

http://www.amazon.com/Tourist-Trains-Gu ... ewpoints=1

does anyone know if a significant operation was overlooked by this book?


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:43 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 3011
psa188 wrote:
I agree that with the Internet and a good search engine, the need for guidebooks in diminishing. That said, the Kalmbach "Tourist Trains Guidebook" is pretty comprehensive. its 4th edition is just out.

http://www.amazon.com/Tourist-Trains-Gu ... ewpoints=1

does anyone know if a significant operation was overlooked by this book?


I'm not aware of any large operations that aren't listed.

There are two reasons for that. The first is the availability of up to date info on the web and in print and the second is that I think that listings in the Kalmbach version have been free, so there's no reason for an operation to decline a listing.

Any time I've checked it, I've found it to be very useful and informative.

One issue even had a photo so identical to mine that the guy would have had to be standing right next to me when he took the photo!
http://www.amazon.com/Tourist-Trains-Gu ... im_sbs_b_4

At first I was sure it was my photo. Then I checked the photo credit, and it was by Jim Wrinn. So, how did he get an identical shot? Well, he was standing right next to me...


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:37 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 12150
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Bobharbison wrote:
The one main problem that I see is that back in the 1970's not all operations were listed in the "Steam Passenger Service Directory" as I think it was called at that point. Listings cost money, and not everyone participated.

It would be interesting to find a complete collection someplace and chart the railroads through the years.


A complete set is at the Maryland Rail Heritage Library (almost two complete sets, in fact).

Are you sure that listings cost money in the old SPSD? I never heard that. I know what the arrangement is with Kalmbach's modern-day successor--sites don't pay, and Kalmbach's editors decide which sites warrant full descriptions (written by contributors Kalmbach chooses and pays). (Disclaimer: I'm one of the paid contributors.)


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:14 pm 

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Location: Thomaston & White Plains
Knowing the two principals responsible for producing the old ESRM "Steam Directory", I really doubt that they charged for listings. They would bemoan the fact that many places would not update info regularly, nor would they send new photos each year.

The Steam Directory is still a good year-to-year benchmark of who was out there operating each season.

Howard P.

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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:30 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Howard P. wrote:
Knowing the two principals responsible for producing the old ESRM "Steam Directory", I really doubt that they charged for listings.

They did not.

Their customers were the book buyers, not the railroads listed therein.

And the old directory was really good at knowing about smaller operations, despite there being no World Wide Web to do research on. The publisher of the new equivalent guidebook, seems like not so much. I don't think they'll intentionally exclude anybody they do know about... but if you're small, seems to me they are less likely to know about you if you're not buying ads. I really don't think they're in their secret lair beneath Union Station, practicing their evil laugh and going "mwahahaha, we'll make small operations payyyyyyy". I just think their diligence is not as high as I would expect from enthusiasts in the age of the Web. It might appear better if they were merely the publisher and only sold the ads therein, but the listings proper were selected and edited by neutral outsiders.

There are a lot of small operations that do a land-office business almost entirely "under the radar". I didn't realize Michigan Transit Museum was running weekly all summer, and I'm a life member! Carthage Knightstown Shirley... the Bellingham operation mentioned earlier... the Folsom museum (both of them)... I always keep finding new ones.

The old directory was progressive; it helped bootstrap small operations by giving them equal coverage to large ones. Henry Ford and Michigan Transit got the same size ad. The new directory seems to have the reverse effect, focusing on large operations while omitting the smallest entirely. A customer may be better served by a near, small train ride than a far, grand one.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
I can verify that there were places that "fell off" the radar scope of the old SPSD. One that springs to mind was the Ohio Railway Museum in Worthington, which was listed in the earlier SPSDs and then later "disappeared." The impression I got was either they developed a rift with the SPSD and did not want to be listed, or that the ORM didn't reply to the annual inquiries for long enough that ESRM just stopped listing them. (It's possible that ORM was, in that time period, going through some strife internally--not the first time that kind of thing has happened.)

I am aware of several "museum" operations that, to be polite about it, aren't "reliable" enough to be listed. They have chronic shortages of volunteers, are only open a couple hours one day a week at best, have at best a motley collection of unrestored equipment, etc. I even went to a couple potential listing locations myself to scope out the status quo. The Kalmbach editor(s) and I had a few back-and-forths over whether certain places warrant a full listing (with description, photo, details, etc.) or just a summary listing. Kalmbach, at least with the places I wrote up, is paying decent money to get trustworthy information and photos.

There are also a few operations and locations that supposedly can't be listed because technically they're "not open to the public." These include a couple NRHS Chapter collections and operations, a couple private railroads, and some "squirreled-away" hoards like a certain one in Michigan.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
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Location: S.F. Bay Area
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
I can verify that there were places that "fell off" the radar scope of the old SPSD. One that springs to mind was the Ohio Railway Museum in Worthington, which was listed in the earlier SPSDs and then later "disappeared." The impression I got was either they developed a rift with the SPSD and did not want to be listed, or that the ORM didn't reply to the annual inquiries for long enough that ESRM just stopped listing them. (It's possible that ORM was, in that time period, going through some strife internally--not the first time that kind of thing has happened.)

There are also a few operations and locations that supposedly can't be listed because technically they're "not open to the public."

I suspect that was the case with ORM.

Unfortunately when things get bad, sometimes people hold onto anything, even if it's not success, and they fall into the habit of measuring success by things other than actual success. Their ship is sinking and they don't care, don't get it, or feel powerless to do anything about it, or have politicized the internal structure to the point where doing something about it is impractical.

From what I gather, ORM has been paralyzed in this state for many years.

Quote:
I am aware of several "museum" operations that, to be polite about it, aren't "reliable" enough to be listed. They have chronic shortages of volunteers, are only open a couple hours one day a week at best... have at best a motley collection of unrestored equipment, etc.

And that's just what I'm worried about: tilting the directory so it makes big outfits bigger (and thus, small outfits smaller)*. Yeah, so a place has very limited hours? Telling people that is the whole point of a directory. (you hardly need a directory to know when Henry Ford is open.) Besides, with the modern Web and smartphones, you don't even need that. And besides, you shouldn't list hours if the directory spans multiple years because outfits change schedules.

And like I said, often the train ride is the point. If you can get one right near Staunton VA, a fellow might like to know that before he makes a whole day of a trip to Cass or Strasburg, even if those are "better" in the eyes of some editor.

*Why is "Gangjam Style" the #1 video on Youtube? Because it's the #1 video on Youtube and everyone just has to go see why. This isn't harmless, it happens at the expense of other content NOT being seen. That sort of thing is really bad for diversity and choice. Say what you will about the Pembertons and ORM's of the world, they are keeping a lot of equipment at least not scrapped.


Quote:
I even went to a couple potential listing locations myself to scope out the status quo. The Kalmbach editor(s) and I had a few back-and-forths over whether certain places warrant a full listing (with description, photo, details, etc.) or just a summary listing. Kalmbach, at least with the places I wrote up, is paying decent money to get trustworthy information and photos.

Well that sounds like a "perfect storm" for crowdsourcing. If you went onto railroadfan.com / Ohio and waved a sawbuck around asking for a picture with rights of the Bluebird train, you'd have a dozen takers in a day.


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 Post subject: Re: Maybe We're Not Doing Too Badly. . .Maybe. . .
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:40 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
robertmacdowell wrote:
Well that sounds like a "perfect storm" for crowdsourcing. If you went onto railroadfan.com / Ohio and waved a sawbuck around asking for a picture with rights of the Bluebird train, you'd have a dozen takers in a day.


And that's actually a problem.

When someone pays for a periodical publication or a guidebook, they are supposedly buying it on the basis of the expertise and experience of the folks involved. Such publications as Frommer's, Zagat's, the Insider's Guide series, and the AAA Guidebooks are purchased because the reputation of the publishers or brand name is well known, and a reader can expect a modicum of experience and knowledge contained within. By contrast, one has trouble separating the signal from the noise of disgruntled diners at websites like Yelp and UrbanSpoon. You are paying a premium for the editorial discretion of the editors and publishers. If a periodical gets a reputation of their "Best of" issue being instead a "Best Of Our Advertisers" selection (as many city magazines are mocked as), people will eventually disregard the publication.

Kalmbach, Carstens, and White River Publishing have many, many contacts that they can call on that have demonstrated, through much experience or interaction, that they can write and photograph, and have the maturity and sophistication not to go ga-ga at the sight of a steamer under steam or a trolley moving. Those are the folks that get a cursory e-mail or phone call asking "so what's REALLY happening with [HJ&K Railroad]? Can you do a write-up on them?" That's worth paying for. It costs nothing to go trolling on TrainCommands.com, Railway.net, or TrainFreaks.org and query--and you get what you pay for (so much manure that you dig through with the expectation that "if there's all this, there's GOTTA be a HORSE in there!").


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