According to my late father-in-law, who gave 42-plus years of his life to the Pennsylvania Railroad in its mechanical department, steam locomotives were always known by their class. I suppose this was due to the PRR policy of assigning engine numbers randomly, especially in the earlier years. He never referred to the K-4s engines as Pacifics, nor the I-1's as Decapods.

And while I'm at it, I never knew a Reading man who referred to the T-1 engines as "T-hogs." They were always "the 2100's" or "the T's."

You could add in:
B&O S Class 2-10-2s as 'Big Sixes'
Western Maryland J Class 4-8-4s as Potomacs
DL&W Q Class 4-8-4s as Poconos
Lehigh ValleyT Class 4-8-4s as Wyomings
Assorted RF&P 4-8-4s as Generals, Governors & Statesmen.

I never heard my late uncles refer to ATSF power except by class. 2900's and "fifty elevens". Example: " Got called for a GFX with a 2900, but on that grade, I would rather have a 3800."

If memory serves, according to Paul King and Charles Harris when Grand Canyon Railway was formed they pulled people from different parts of the country. When it came to operating with people from different regions things such as hand signals were just different enough to drive everyone nuts until they standardize on a single system. When people create rules as to terms that “fit the nation” they show their ignorance to regional differences both good and bad. I have heard enough different terms for a Christmas tree on a locomotive to prove my point. If I used some of them today at work it would put you into a sensitivity class. Also this implied “you are stupid” attitude that some show in their posts when they are mistaken is the type of things that drives people away from discussion boards which ultimately hurts everyone.

Now if I could just convince SP fans that 3420 is not a Harriman engine even if it shares some characteristics.


Robby Peartree

You remember it right. Before Charles Harris left Texas State we teased him because he was still using " Southern" signs, while the rest of us were using "Western" !

Allright Robbie....tell me why 3420 is not a Harriman engine....don't have a dog in that fight, just wanna know.....

Why did the National of Mexico style their 4-8-4s as "Niagaras" (or perhaps "Niagras")? Was somebody in their motive power department a NYC fan?

Hi Txhighballer
I n a phone conversation tonight I was asked if I was going to explain my comment. I said yes and the caller responded with oh good I want to see how you handle this one. In the course of our conversation we discussed that she was actually ordered for the New Mexico Ry. & Coal Co and lettered El Paso & Northeastern 171 (EP&NE) (info from her Baldwin spec card). The N. M. Ry & C. Co. and the EP & NE were apart of the many projects of the Eddy Brothers holdings at the time. They were backed by money in Scranton, Pennsylvania. The EP & NE had an agreement with the Rock Island for the connection but they also had access to coal in the White Oaks area of New Mexico which played out quickly and the Dawson mind which was critical to the copper industry in southern New Mexico and Arizona for smelting of copper.

James Douglas who was working for Phelps Dodge (a copper company at that time) was already looking for metallurgical grade coal when 3420 was built and his activities caused great concern for the SP and the Rio Grande with his coal reserves between Farmington, New Mexico, and Durango, Colorado. While making noise there he apparently studied the legal case involving what we know today as the Dawson mine and bought the property before the case on it was decided. With the coal he needed now under his control the only thing he needed was to control the shipment of it. After studying options it was decided to purchase the EP&NE and have it become apart of his railroad the El Paso & Southwestern (EP&SW). Even at its high asking price it was still cheaper than his alternatives. In 1924 the SP leased the EP & SW and 3420 then made it to the SP family. The minning and transportation issues expressed here do not seem to be understood by many people.

3420 was not built for a Harriman controlled property and does have some differences in design. The only EP&NE locomotive still in existence, and one of two locomotives that did any real work for the EP&SW still in existence. In 1918, 3420 was superheated in October and converted to grease cakes for 40 mph running on perishable trains. In 1921, 3420 was leased to a railroad in Mexico and it appears she may have been the inspiration for one of the Chihuahua beer labels. 3420 was also equipped with a Flaman Tachograph (an early speed recorder) during its EP & SW ownership.

Now I will find out how much I botched this history when I talk to my friend on the phone again.

Robby

I have a Santa Fe ETT from the '40s with the heading "Modified Mountain Type" and listing road numbers 3751-3764, 3765-3775, 3776-3785, and 2900-2929

That was the official ATSF designation for it's 4-8-4s.

Tubarao Museum on the EFDTC in Brazil will be supplying Santa Fe 2-10-2 number 205 for the FarRail photo charter in July....

http://www.farrail.net/pages/touren-eng ... 013-07.php

Are there any other Santa Fe's operating today?

TH

There are the two Chinese built Class QJ engines on the Iowa Interstate RR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Rail ... ted_States

Generally speaking, Santa Fe's operating and mechanical departments (as well as train crews) referred to locomotives by class number rather than type to avoid confusion, as there were often several classes of a given type in service at any given time and substantial differences between those classes as well.

Santa Fe designated its original class of 4-8-4s as such because they quite literally were an improved version of its 3700 class Mountains, with a longer boiler, larger firebox, and a four wheel trailing truck to support that larger firebox. Indeed, 3751 as originally built appeared almost identical to the 3700s, with the larger firebox and trailing truck being the only obvious difference. Apparently the mechanical department saw no need to change the type designation for the later classes of 4-8-4s (probably since ATSF generally referred to its locomotives by class number rather than type).

Incidentally, the original 2-10-2s built for the Santa Fe were a modified Decapod design, intended for helper service on Raton Pass. Two Decapods were built for and used in this service (and were also considered the most powerful of their type at the time), but (since there were no turning facilities at the top of the pass) had to return to Raton or Trinidad at slow speed, which was not acceptable at all to the operating department folks. They were otherwise quite satisfactory, though, so an order was placed with Baldwin for Decapods of the same design with trailing trucks added to permit faster operation in reverse. These proved more successful and ATSF eventually built five more classes of the type (including two that were built using the front and rear sections of the 3000 class 2-10-10-2s).

This is EXACTLY why I love RYPN...you just never know what you are going to learn!
Now come the particulars...just how close were the C-9's (SP 3420) in specifications to the C-9's built for Union Pacific, which were Harrimans?

The C-19 (3420 class) were a little smaller than Harriman locomotives. The C-18 and C-19 had radial stayed crown sheets where locomotives like UP 619 had crown bars initially.

Robby Peartree