Hopefully copyright on equipment software doesn't present a problem either. If it does...well...I wonder if you can run a trolley under Linux? LRV, "Linux Rail Vehicle". Has a nice ring to it. ;)

> I think it's important not to "psych yourself out" too much about all this electronic >automation. That blade is double-edged, and the other edge works very much in our >favor. I absolutely foresee a day when we're replacing whole cabinets of circuit cards >with a single little Arduino, and that is the way things trend. Really the stuff is not that >hard to work with, and "kids these days" just go to it like ducks to water.

>The reason you think it's hard to work with is inhibitions. Chances are slim that you're >going to pick up a book, learn DC electronics, run out to Radio Shack and buy an >Arduino kit, and spend evenings making magic smoke until you learn. Which is what it >takes to "get it".

This brings up a preservation issue that may have been covered before, but that may be worth bringing up again:

At what point does 'preservation' entail this kind of "re-engining", with modern controls and software? Is it OK if the 'closed box' and wiring maintain prototype appearance? Is it OK to put transducers and sensors in the case of an older trolley's controller and control a modern type of power drive to older traction motors? Is it OK to change the actual internal motor components as long as the 'outside' looks and fits like the original?

And then there are changes to install modern components in historical (or historical-appearing) vehicles. Most Memphis trolleys have various colored lights, flatscreen displays, and radio pieces clearly visible at the motorman's stations. On the other hand, perhaps the coolest installation of 'modern tech' I remember seeing was on one of the rebuilt Reading steel MU cars ... probably a Blueliner, although I was not paying careful attention ... which had a basically 'stock' interior except for a small black box with two big, blue vacuum-fluorescent speedometer digits.

I bring this up specifically with respect to restoring rail equipment for 'fantrip service' rather than museum integrity. Where does, or should, one draw the line? Does the situation change if the equipment is not 'one of a kind', or if the components being replaced are not viewed as 'significant'? To what extent must the original components be kept intact and in good order, and should all the 'cutting and fitting' and other modifications be made to the installed equipment, and not the structure of the existing vehicle?

The San Diego cars were manufactured in the days before integrated circuits were common.

One problem with solid state electronics is that many of the semi-conductors no longer are manufactured. The "equivalent" replacements may or may not work properly. Without correct replacement parts an entire circuit may need to be re-engineered. Semi-conductors do not have an infinite shelf life. They can fail while sitting on a shelf.

That was one of the problems with the space shuttles at the end of their lives. They were full of obsolete electronic components.

When old circuit boards were manufactured, they were tested in special jigs to identify defective components. Those test jigs also probably no longer exist.

So this should be a caution about preserving diesel or electric rail vehicles. How do you keep it running when the electronic components fail?

Several of the earlier Boeing LRV have been preserved... one from Boston at Sea Shore, and two from Muni, one at Rio Vista, and one at Brooks Oregon... I believe Muni retained one for its historic fleet as well...

There is a rumor of a couple of Muni cars in England

These cars (the Boeings and the San Diego car) are continuations of what many museums collect, and are compatible with a trolley museum right of way

Randy

I'll be the first to say "stay original". I just did a write up for rework of South Shore #1's electricals, and everything in it was faithful to the original. Right down to the wire. That is certainly de ringer at WRM and thank you for that spelling correction there, iPad. When you deviate from original, you invite big problems.

But sometimes that is simply impracticable. You just have to find an appropriate demarcation point, e.g. 1361's boiler, or the transformer (but not taps) of a GG1... plinth the historic fabric, replace with modern, and neither conceal nor apologize. Because it is part of the story, and education is not just interpretation.

At what point in age does a new vehicle become historic, so that it should no longer be changed? That speedometer was a modern addition to a Blueliner that had already been modernized from an older MU car that may have even earlier been a steam coach! But, it was still added before it became a museum piece.
What if a museum buys a new streetcar as an add on to some transit authority's order? Can it ever be altered, even when very new?

It is more than a rumor. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Standar ... il_Vehicle

In 2002 the city of Manchester, UK was host to the British Commonwealth games. Manchester has its own LRT system named Metrolink. As many of the athletic stadiums were on the route of the LRT capacity problems were foreseen, and a short term solution was required. Manchester Metrolink approached Muni about the possibility of buying redundant Boeing LRVs for use on Metrolink. Two units were purchased for US$200–US$500[2] for initial evaluation and shipped to the UK.

Yeah, I hate quoting Wikipedia, but I vaguely recall hearing about this a decade ago.

The chronicle had a snide look at these cars when they were retired. It also mentions the UK cars:
http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/M ... 883855.php

Gee whiz, what did Manchester ever do to us to warrant such punishment???

I recall an article about the Boeing LRV's in the late lamented L&RP. I'm not sure why they ran the feature, since none (that I know of) were preserved at the time.

In any case, the article detailed the cars and also the many problems with controls, doors, electronics, brakes, frame, etc, etc, etc. By the time the article was done, I was left wondering exactly what part of the car WASN'T defective. I think the seats may have been satisfactory...

Interesting quote in the above referenced article.



$500 each? Nobody wanted one, even for static display? Yeah, I know, the "free" railcar costs $10K to ship, but still, nobody? Wow...

Oh, so the idea is to "replace cabinets full of circuit cards with a single little (insert the name of the latest electronic gizmo, soon to be obsolete itself)."

And here I thought all along the idea of a "museum" was to preserve technology......

Nobody (necessarily) said you had to rip out the old to replace it with the new. I've seen many instances where a modern piece of electrical/electronic technology was used to BYPASS the obsolete hardware.

Whether you bypass or replace the electronics, you are still dealing with the reality that electronic components have finite lives in the market and once they're out of production (or out of reach, read: expensive) preservation combined with operation takes the risk of smoking some small device that can render the entire vehicle unusable or even unsafe.

Luckily for the good folks at RTY, the early San Diego cars are by far not the worst in this respect. They use cam controlled resistive switching, much easier to deal with than the various chopper schemes that came soon thereafter, such as the K cars in Philly. If RTY can deal with some mechanical limitations, such as the rather wide minimum radius the cars demand, they stand a good chance of getting it running and keeping it that way.

But as each successivel "modern" transit car reaches retirement age and preservation is considered, all the warnings about obsolescence will apply.

I agree the situation of aging electrical systems bears examination and consideration--and planning.

But, really, this is no different than the challenges steam and diesel guys face. Safety valve, driver tires, staybolts, or cylinder rings worn out? Guess you gotta give up and call it a day, eh? Nobody can get THAT stuff anymore, right?

I go to several ham radio and computer shows every year. Though the raw attendance or participation levels of these shows, like all such hobby shows, is in decline because of the Internet granting access to the most obscure bits and knowledge from around the globe, the folks who do this are still alive and kicking. Just like there's a pocket of "weirdos" that keep steam threshers and locomotives (and vintage automobiles, for that matter) alive for the sheer masochistic fun of it, there are guys who utterly live for tackling an electrical or electronic challenge, be it where to find a working vacuum tube of the right type, keeping an old Beta VCR running (because "they ARE better, dammit!"), or how to rig up a wire recorder to transfer those old steam or oral history recordings to a modern digital format. I have a guy who collects vintage Atari video games that works with one of my "geek" friends to build such things as cartridge adapters to run old cartridges in new (expendable) systems. All I have to do around the right circles (like a morning-drive ham gabfest--"the ham radio's Facebook") is ask about some perplexing electronic problem, and you can sense the geeks' heads popping up like prairie dogs or meerkats, sniffing out a challenge!

As my one ham friends says, "Just because it's electrical or electronic, folks who don't have the basic understanding treat it like voodoo and black magic. It's no more so than steam or internal combustion."

Quite right, Sandy, "Old Tech" can be a challenge, but it can also be fun to tinker with, amaze friends, and create a very satisfied grin once you slay all the demons and the thing actually WORKS!

Ham radio is full of guys who revere the old "boat anchor" tube sets and regularly restore and use them. I know a few of them.

Dave Hamley,
K3PRR

Our Hague PCC (Alstom 1971) at NCTM is solid state between the operator pedals and the traditional Westinghouse drum controller and pilot motor. An interesting hybrid of old and new technology that gets a bit touchy from time to time. So far we've managed to stay a step ahead of things.

Wesley