the one thing I forgot to mention that really put the SP 3420 on the backburner for at least a full restoration is the need to install new roller bairings on the locomotive, and coaches. class 1 railroads will not allow locomotive operation without this done.

When Class 1's do allow steam locomotive operation, roller bearings are not the major consideration. Several locomotives( SOU 630, soon 4501) will quite happily run on plain bearings, except they will be oil lubed instead of grease fed. Roller bearings on other than driver axles is prudent for maintenance ease and possible replacement of the road if needed.

How far ahead of yourself do you want to get? Sometimes you end up in your own way.....

As Tex correctly replies, complete roller conversion is not only not required, it is currently impossible. The one good try made for conversion failed. Which isn't to say that some day it can't be perfected, but the expectation is not there.

Roller bearings are used as a great excuse to politely say no to proposals railroads don't want to say yes to. So, first you create a proposal with a railroad as a partner so YES has already happened, then you do the restoration knowing the operating plan is already in place. If there's no operating plan, a restoration to operating condition is a waste of money and time. In 15 years it will need to be done over, with not a wheel turned to pay for it.

dave

Isn't the only Class I in El Paso the Union Pacific? UP typically does not allow the operation of other's steam locomotives on their railroad.

How do you know that roller bearings are required?

I applaud your enthusiasm, but I think you need to break this up into smaller, more easily-doable pieces. What would your first goal be?

If operating this engine is its highest and best use, shouldn't the effort be directed at getting it to a railroad (tourist or museum) that would need it? I could think of a couple of places where an SP consolidation could be used regularly.

The city owns it, but it serves no public benefit to have the engine locked up inside a private industrial facility.

Alternately, put together the political and financial support needed to build a railroad museum as BrassPheonix envisions. Figure out how to get it to be financially self-sustaining, and raise at least $5M for a building, cosmetic restorations, and exhibits.

Display it, Restore it, or Let it Go.

Why would you want to destroy all of the history represented by converting a locomotive to roller bearings? 3420 was converted to grease cakes for 40 mph operation in 1918 because while on oil lubrication it was cutting axles above 30mph. Many of the driving boxes still have the EP&SW number 271. By changing this and changing that, at what point do you take an artifact and make it a non-representative modern piece of equipment? It is particularly frustrating to me that we can not make old technology operate reliably and have to improve everything like a bunch of hot rodders. The SP put steel wheels under the tender in 1980. Instead of worrying about technical details we need to find ways to get 3420’s owner involved. Until the city does something nothing can change. Remember 3420 currently resides in one of the largest RR car users for UP in El Paso. That can have a level of pull in its own right if it handled carefully. I understand the chapter going to begin doing work on the James Watt to demonstrate to the city a dedication to the collection.

I remember when Mr. Bill Gates chartered a cross country passenger train. I do not think I saw BNSF watch a particular train as much as that one. In the right situation, a lot of things can happen including private people renting a whole train and railroad police making sure the client is happy. El Paso is served by two railroads, both the UP and BNSF. There are opportunities there.


On the value of #1, when that value of $12 was declared, the scrap value of #1 was greater than $12 at that time and the RR officials mentioned that. I wonder if the reason for the low value was so the locomotive was not seen as a tax burden on the books.
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Robby Peartree

Robbie - agreed about unnecessary changes. Drifting away from the thread here..... the proposed kind of use sort of dictates the alterations and choices necessary to keep a steam program sustainable. Something to fire up fo special occasions in limited and light duty use.....century old standards worked fine then, and will today. Tourist and museum operation on a regular schedule dictates we make alterations to provide for greater reliability and economy, since nobody wants to disappoint passengers that show up wanting to ride behind the advertised steamer only to find a 44 tonner instead. Mainline excursion service - now, we have the problem of not only tying up the railroad, but making steam excursion operation seem unsustainable and unreliable from the railroad executives POV, so everything we can do to make for a reliable, robust and uneventfully pleasant experience for not only the riders but the people who own the tracks is in order.

Once we get past the idea that we must find a use for the locomotive we have sitting there rusting, and instead develop the plan first and then find the right locomotive for it, we'll have reached a necessary level of maturity to talk about playing with the big boys.

dave

Dear Dave

If 3420 stays in El Paso it will not run on a daily basis. The plans proposed in the 1990s were short mainline runs to get to an industrial spur to do different things. Using it for toy collection in a public area for Toys for Tots where you give a toy and get a ride or heading to south El Paso to distribute the toys. We had an idea to work with BNSF on operation lifesaver using the locomotive for such things as officer in the cab in the local area. In short just work the surrounding community areas. To that end a bearing temperature sensor system would probably do a lot to ease some fears of plain bearings. 4960 had one while I was at GCR and if the wires are maintained they can give you an idea of what is going on. I do not think Mr. Franzen would have installed it if he did not think BNSF would have accepted it for use on the mainline which never happened.

El Paso is a poor community and culturally different community from most of the US. It is important to understand how to manipulate that difference if the project is to succeed. 3420 will never b the star of a Southern type steam program but if she can run just often enough to introduce a new generation about steam locomotives and put smiles on non Railfan faces then I think she can run. The key is finding things that help your hosts and benifit the group.

Robby Peartree

P.S.

Below are out takes of a paper I am working on and off for years .


3420 A Locomotive of the Southwest II

Today sitting in the copper refinery in El Paso rests a railroad steam locomotive sitting quietly waiting for someone somewhere to pay attention to it. A machine of history it sits waiting for someone to rediscover it and bring its story back to life.

The Locomotive was placed on display near El Paso Union Depot in May 1, 1956. Having spent years in both mainline and switching service it slumbered for years. Then in 1980 an idea was born and interest in getting the old relic running again spread to different people with different backgrounds and abilities. This surge of energy set a goal of a return to operation for 3420 to participate in the 4 centuries ‘81 celebration. To accomplish this, 3420 was removed from its display site in November 1980 and taken to Wyler Industrial Works where most of the work took place. The city owned locomotive was worked on by fellow citizens under the El Paso Historical RR Board. At times I understand that more people were working on 3420 as volunteers than for Wyler as employees with all of the projects they have going on at the time. By the narrowest of margins the group succeeded in their goal and 3420 operated with the SP steam derrick in tow. In 1982 3420 participated in the Union Depot rededication. It was then moved to the water works property near Biggs field. The biggest problem with the water works site was the need to pay for a security guard every time someone needed to work on the locomotive. 3420 was on display for the 1982 and 1983 Amigo Air Shows. In September 1983 the locomotive left the Water Works for Phelps Dodge with its collection of railroad cars in tow. It headed down the Golden State (the railroad line between El Paso and Alamogordo, NM) and turned east at the Downtown yard and headed to Alpha Yard which is below the refineries before heading into the copper Refinery.

In June 1984 3420 made one more appearance on the SP high iron. SP 4449 was returning to Portland Oregon from New Orleans and the locomotives double headed from Alpha yard to the Union Depot. 3420 suffered a blown plate in its smoke box that disabled the locomotive and 4449 pushed it the rest of the way. 3420 was repaired and returned to Phelps Dodge Without incident. In 1985, 3420 operated in the copper refinery for the R&LHS national convention, a promotional event for the Texas Sesquicentennial Train that was to criss cross the State of Texas but never did happen. The Pullman Car James Watt which now resides with 3420 at the copper refinery was to be the El Paso Car on the train. 3420 was to meet the train in Van Horn and Double head back to El Paso. In November of 1985 she operated for the Dedication of Jack Bell Park in the refinery. In 1983 Phelps Dodge’s Union struck and the strike was long and lead to the removal of the union. 3420 crossed the strike line when it went there. The strike included National Guard action in Arizona after a young girl was killed. In order to give the company families a safe park environment after several had been harassed at public parks. 3420 operated until the fuel oil ran out which turned out to be while Jack Bell (President of Phelps dodge, with Chapter President Karen Marston behind him) was at the throttle. 3420 had enough steam in the boiler to unload passengers and head to its storage place then by the Met lab on track two. 3420 operated one more time on December 28, 1985 before our FRA inspection for the Vancouver B.C. worlds fair. An issue was found and the locomotive has not operated since. There have been both political and technical issues since.

...
3420 was retired in 1954 and donated to the City of El Paso on May 1, 1956 and placed in front of Union Depot. The El Paso County Historical Society organized on March 18, 1954, played a role in the locomotive’s dedication. There web site states the following; “The society, in its earliest years, presented to the city of El Paso three important historical relics: engine number one of the El Paso and Southwestern Railroad, an original mule car that provided El Paso's first streetcar service, and steam engine number 3420 of the Southern Pacific Railroad.”

...
As much as I love railroading it is a personal experience and people make the difference. To that end I want to thank the many people involved with 3420 over the years. The first list is the list of people on the water cooler who were involved in putting the locomotive on display. While I do not have their names it is comforting to know that they are remembered. I want to thank David Sruggs, Chris Stark, Perry Cunningham, Karen Marston, Jesus Diaz, Dwight Culver, Lyle Benson, and the rest of the early volunteers that showed what is possible. The Berry family who owned (hopefully still do?) Wyler and their staff deserve a lot of thanks for assisting the volunteers. I want to thank Freeport-MacMoRan (it will always be Phelps Dodge to me) for giving the locomotive and cars a good home but more importantly to me I want to thank both Bill Spoon and George Bailey for not throwing out a 13 year old kid who wanted to work on the locomotive. I also want to thank Al Lafayette, Bill Slater, Dana Ray, Johnny Knight, Cesar Rena (rebricking the locomotive firebox) and the rest of the Construction and repair staff for the gift of their time and knowledge.

Some 3420 history

Robby

The EP & NE established their major shop facilities at Alamogordo. Infact the City of Alamogordo was established by the EP & NE. As a company town it was laid out for the company’s benefit and a good illustration of this is the fact that the saloons in town were within view of the Superintendent’s office. The mainline locomotive types the EP & NE were 4-6-0s (7) and 2-6-2s (6) in passenger service and 2-8-0s (54) in freight service and one 0-6-0. The Alamogordo & Sacramento Mountain had specialized rod locomotives and the Dawson Railway had purchased used moguls. (Source: Southwest RR notes)

The El Paso & Northeastern had 4 classes of 2-8-0s. 3420 (EP & NE #171) was apart of the last order of 18 2-8-0’s for the EP & NE (numbers 161 to 178) which have builder months of June (10), August (6), and September (2). This class was very similar to the previous class of 2-8-0s. Two 2-6-2s were completed in September as well. The EP&NE did not buy another locomotive after the 2-8-0 178. (Source: Southwest RR notes)

On July 1, 1905 the EP & SW purchased the EP & NE. Phelps Dodge was the owner of the EP & SW and saw several advantages to the purchase of the EP & NE which included the coal mine at Dawson which had metallurgical grade coal which was an important issue in the copper smelters of the time. In short order the EP & SW built their shops in El Paso and moved major locomotive repair to there. (Various)

The documented changes to 3420 started in 1906 with the increase to 58 inch diameter drivers by increasing the tire size. In 1913, 3420 was renumbered to 271. In September and October 1918, 3420 was superheated. This work included replacing both front and rear tube sheets and moving the location of the front tube sheets back four inches and installation of 9 inch piston valves. (UTEP Library SP Coll)

In December, 1918, 3420 was back in the locomotive shop receiving a conversion from oil to grease lubrication of the drivers to solve some axle cutting at speeds above 30 mph during the annual melon rush. The maximum mainline speed for freight service was 30 mph but it apparently could be increased for the “melon season” by the dispatcher and speeds of 35 to 40 MPH were reached. The effect on the locomotives was cut axles and they believed they needed the grease lubrication to fix the problem. The class was operating out of El Paso to Carrizozo with runs to Duran and Hachita, NM as needed. The several of the driving boxes under 3420 today have the number 271. (UTEP Library SP Coll)

In the spring of 1921, 3420 was leased to the Cia Cervecera de Chihuahua, S.A., and Cia Harinera El Globo, S.A and operated as far south as Torreon. Sometime after 3420 was returned to the US, the driver diameter was reduced to 57 inches in diameter. This was done sometime after December of 1921 by reducing the wheel centers one inch. In Sept. 25, 1924 she received a rail washer to reduce the rolling resistance of equipment behind the locomotive. Also during its time with EP &SW it very likely the locomotive was fitted with a Flaman Tachograph. The device contains a speed and time recording and therefore the EP & SW could monitor a locomotive engineer’s ability to control their speed. Between 1911 and 1920, a total of 114 locomotives in road service on the EP & SW were so equipped. Just before the Lease/sale of the EP &SW to the SP she was renumbered 3420. (UTEP Library SP Coll, Southwest RR notes)

You've done a lot of good research, Robby. Very good stuff. Today I ran across your 2011 article on #3420 in the "El Paso & Southwestern Flyer" published by the R&LHS.
Link: 3420, A Locomotive of the Southwest

It's interesting to me that #3420 goes back to the El Paso & Northeastern Railway (later bought by the EP&SW), and is the only surviving loco from that railroad. I didn't know any of that! This 2-8-0 is a lot more special than the average SP consolidation type.

For fun, I've attached a map of the EP&NE to see the places mentioned by Robby where #3420 worked -- like Dawson, Alamogordo, El Paso, etc. Looks like the loco worked the entire length of New Mexico during its career. So, yes, the 3420 really is "a locomotive of the Southwest", and is a good steam locomotive to represent railroad history of this region.

hmm it seems that by my wording you guys seem to think that restoring SP 3420 is my highest priority and it may have been but I truely think building the museum takes the highest priority. Though how I have the railroad portion of the museum set up it will allow for the SP 3420 to be restored latter on, if and when funding is availible. Right now the highest priority right now goes to the creation and build up of the multimedia sites, it is a new age and this stuff is very important if the younger generation is going to be apart of it. the days of word of mouth events and groups are long gone and in order to succed the group need to have build up thier multimedia database (website, facebook, blogs, ect). websites for the there indepth information about the group and there mission, facebook for social awareness and a blog for weekly or biweekly updates to inform people of how active the group is and if their donation money is/or going to be effectivly used. next is to "campain" to raise funds for a new museum, one that will atract people from all over the states. these are the top two goals, anything else is extra. My plan is to eventually have the museum buy the short line in El Paso for thier own personal use for trolly, steam, and speeder runs. If all we can get is the unused airport extention then it will still work for at least trolly and speeder runs, which are very easy and cost effective way for a local attraction.

I ran across this article in the El Paso Times from June 18 that talks about the current rail museum ("The Railroad and Transportation Museum of El Paso") being evicted by the city from its downtown location. Apparently the museum and city could not reach an agreement on the lease. So now the entire museum's contents, except the 4-4-0 locomotive, are going into storage. Obviously a huge disappointment for volunteers who poured much time and energy into the museum.

Article:
http://www.elpasotimes.com/newupdated/c ... st_emailed

PS. In the comments section below the article, there seems to be plenty of support for the museum.

FLO with both the El Paso Railroad and Transportation museum and "Insights" museum of science and technology being kicked out of their homes, It is the perfect time to have both parties team up during these hard times. while the City will be giving "insights" a "new" temporary home it will be vastly smaller then their old one and they are afraid of losing a lot of their exhibits. though that was about six months ago, many things could have changed.
My Plan assuming both groups work together and that we might be able to acquire the hanger in El Paso will be in several main phases.



First Phase:
In the first phase both museums will move into the Hanger with "Insights" being the main operating museum in the Hanger. "Insights" will be given Higher priority due to the amount of Exhibits they need to display. During this Phase the hanger will be gutted and remodeled and parking will be upgraded. The No.1 will be put on display inside the hanger temporarily as an exhibit on Steam power, just a simple display with both information about the locomotive and railroad it served on display as well. Also the PCC cars can be moved to the flight line or on the field adjacent to the Flight line at this point in time. If funding permits all railroad equipment can be moved to a newly built spur on museum property at this time.

Second Phase:
The railroad portion of the Museum will be built during this phase. while I am still currently working on the concept art, so far I envision a 4 track "roundhouse" inspired building. The bottom Level of the Museum will have a fully in depth experience on American Railroading, most notably railroading in the south. I would like the overall museums underlining theme be about "past, present, and future" (both "insights" and the Railroad portion). the upper portion will be the "hands on experience" portion of the museum. as well as a portion in the upper level dedicated to model railroading with small model displays that depict different scenes of railroading (rail yards, shops, ect) also during this phase a small two to three track work shop that will be built for both museums. included in the shop will be the bay for railroad equipment restoration, a garage/bay for exhibit restoration and for the creation for newer exhibits. and a break room for both volunteer groups.

Third Phase:
The third phase is really the only on going, never ending phase. this phase would be dedicated to things like an planetarium, auditorium, turntable, restorations (SP3420), ect. essentially large costly "extras" that would be beneficial to the museum as a whole.

Again any thoughts or critiques about the overall plan will be welcomed

People welcome you more when you bring your own financing with you......

dave

Hello all,

I am trying to find out some information about the #3420 in El Paso. I believe my grandfather may have worked on it to help get it running when they moved it the last time. If it wasn't the 3420 then it was another engine because I know he had some involvement with the restoration / repair of a steam locomotive in the late 80's / early 90's but he was fairly old at the time so i am not sure what his involvement may have been. My grandfather was a steam mechanic who worked for the Southern Pacific Railroad for many years and lived (and died) in El paso TX.
I am also wondering where the engine is now and if anyone has any photos of it that they can send me. I'd also like to know if anyone who worked on it when they moved it is still around and whether or not they knew my grandfather. His name is Travis Merritt. My father has a photo of him standing on the engine which I may be able to have scanned and posted on here if that helps.

Thanking you in advance,
Shawn Merritt