> You are kidding right?

I don't think he is and it is a very good point. I'm not turning this into a political debate or anything, because really our views on topics off of the title off this page aren't important. But, if you read history, and not the stuff that was crammed into our heads about our forefathers in school, you will see that the Native Americans, or the first inhabitants of this country were and are, still the most oppresed group of people in this country.

Well, I'll get off my soap box for now...

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

In this year of the Lord 2002, the 100th Anniversary of the greatest train in America, the Twentieth Century Limited, that would be my choice.

fitzrr@pioneer.net

> I don't think he is and it is a very good
> point.

I asked if he was joking for a reason- because I do read history- the pre-politically correct-all first inhabitants were nobel peace laureates before the DWM (dead white males) arrived.

That having been said, I will not assert that the first (not native-there were no "native") Americans were treated fairly-they were not. Treaties were regularly broken and sometimes formed with no intention of being honored-sometimes at the behest of land grant railroads and that is germaine to RR history. 4-4-0's were called iron horses and feared for a reason.

Ivory tower academics have the distinct advantage of viewing events with hundreds of years of 20-20 hindsight and certain amount of moral elitism. I can see-if not approve of-how the new arrivals were so dismissive of the incumbent populace.

Additionally, I get very queasy somebody starts on the group victimization/entitlement thing (and then cross pollinates it with the ever-reaching tentacles of our deformed intellectual property laws.) I can't think of any group of any race that could successfully assert a general claim or franchise on ethnic/ ethnic inspired art-anywhere in any court and not be tossed out as a vexatious litigant.

It would be as though you and I wanted to trademark a general claim on all uses or references to polkas by virtue of being of Eastern European descent with out actually having put creative effort into an individual song. So to call ATSF's use of "inspired" imagery "stolen" has to be hyperbole.

>I'm not turning this into a political
> debate or anything, because really our views
> on topics off of the title off this page
> aren't important.

Railroads were instrumental in westward expansion and the implementation of "manifest destiny" so its hardly off-topic. We are the presenters of RR history so its important. Our accounts should be accurate and balanced.

Wh shy away from politics? It was an ever present influence over and factor on Railroads.

Read Albro Martin.(Enterprise Denied, Railroads Triumphant) If you don't know about the ICC act, Mann-Elkins, etc., you can't understand railroads. If you have any financial background, you don't know whether to laugh or cry when you read the accounts of US senators taking to the senate floor to decry the issuance of no-par value stock.

>But, if you read history, and not the stuff that >was crammed into our heads about our forefathers >>in school,

Actually, I read a lot of things, history included. Quite frankly, I sort of resent your presupposition to the contrary. Moreover, I never had anything "crammed" into my head.

Whatever deficiencies the idealized depiction of the "forefathers" has had in the past, the modern PC version that that the "first inhabitants" were universally peaceful folks without moral blemish is a worse distortion of history and utterly without merit. The truth is-along with great people like Chief Joseph-there was centuries of internecine tribal conquest and reconquest (including ethnic cleansing, strategic rape and kidnapping) with stagnant military technologies until the Europeans came here. The Creek for example, inventors of lacrosse-played the game as a death match. I believe you'd get a better balanced view of this aspect of human behavior by reading "migrations and cultures" by the Thomas Sowell. No group has a monopoly of victimization or on morality.

>you will see that the Native Americans, or the >first inhabitants of this country were and are, >still the most oppresed group of people in this >country.

Beyond the fact that I view people as individuals, not merely as members of a group-you would be correct that the descendents of the first inhabitants have higher rates of a great many social pathologies- alcoholism is rampant. Again, not off-topic because distilled spirits were often introduced courtesy of railroads. For somebody living in 2002-Thats either substance dependency or a vice-depending on the individual. Neither the alcoholism, or its economic or social consequences constitute group oppression for first inhabitants than it does for other groups that have statistically higher alcoholism rates.

>Well, I'll get off my soap box for now...

Likewise. But don't get off your soapbox, if you really believek that there are people being systematically oppressed.. do something about it, become a lawyer and work pro bono publico for an advocacy group or lay out some $$$.

Superheater
from parts unknown (because 'free' speech carries a heavy cost)


superheater@beer.com

The icon synomous with the "Bright Horizons" of the cowboy landscape that is the American West was the...

Santa Fe Superchief. Without a doubt.

The icon synomous with the "Class, Style and Stature" of the urbane dignity of American East was the...

New York Central 20th Century Limited. Obvious.

But hey gang. Take off the rose-tinted, wanna-be engineer googles off! Passenger trains are simply aesthetic charm, eye candy engineered to entice dwindling ridership and brand railroads.

American Railroads have consistently been about moving freight. America dropped the ball on passenger railroading long ago and hasn't recovered the fumble yet. The French, Japanese, and Germans have never dropped the ball, in fact on fourth down they converted, scored and it's been a rout.

Superchief? 20th Century Limited? Compared to any generation of TGV or Bullet Train ARE Lionels.

The "American Train" that has defined the soul of railroading in this country lies somewhere in the heart of a battle-hardened Lackawanna Coal Train and today, may reside in the steel of a Powder River Basin Coal Unit Train.

Trains in America have always been about bulk. About moving goods to market. The American freight train seeths with the capitalistic ideals of manifest destiny. The coal train exemplifies this by displaying the power and plenty of the land and economy.

As a designer, who gets paid to seduce people with imagery, I fear you all have been lulled by product branding. The trains that all have mentioned - including the Superchief and 20th Century - are certainly unsurpassed in their universal beauty and ingenuous designs, but no one of them is the "American Train."

Look past the logos, the polish, the slogans, the paint...see the true grit of the "American Train" pushing through the Alleghenies as black and as beautiful as coal.

ps
some partisan endnotes...

To most of America (the non-railfan variety)...

"Santa Fe" means a retirement town for burnt-out, well-monied LA pseudo-intelligentsia.
The "Superchief" is some dated politically incorrect terminology of unknown origin.

The "New York Central" is some old bankrupt monopoly, an early Enron if you will.
The "20th Century" was last millenium's news.

The "Lackawanna" represents - not a place, image, or ideal - but rather, a mythical American Railroad. The "coal train" symbolizes the soul of American railroad feeding the furnaces that continue to forge a growing nation. Get it?

(A pre-emptive apology to my "Daylight" buddies out here in Oregon: Sorry, but an "American Train" should not be the exception(al), it should represent the rule. Afterall this is a democracy, not a monarchy. The American Freedom Train was all about freedom and democracy. The 4449 was the EXCEPTIONALLY valiant messenger of those ideals, but this alone would not qualify it as the archetypical "Amercian Train." She is a queen of the rails, yet the decidedly "American Train" must be common one.)

http://www.orhf.org
gkamp@mwaarchitects.com

> But hey gang. Take off the rose-tinted,
> wanna-be engineer googles off! Passenger
> trains are simply aesthetic charm, eye candy
> engineered to entice dwindling ridership and
> brand railroads.

Is seems another era is being forgotten. For how many years the only practical way to get across America was the passenger train? From the high and mighty to the great unwashed, this was it. From the rolling palaces catering to the whims of presidents and celebrities to the refurbished box cars carrying the homesteaders to the troop trains bringing the boys home, this is what made the news and created the image. The vast piles erected for terminals and stations were a testament to the importance of moving people around the country.

The USA as we know it could not have been built without the railroads, there was no other way to move the millions of tons of raw materials and finished goods across such a vast area. This was the background that made all else possible. Back in the "good old daze" when RR's handled even LCL traffic, every business that was a business had a siding or a location close to a team track (remember those things)because any long distance move was made by rail. In those days a train was 50, 40' cars of about 50-70 tons and a lot of trains moved over the system pulled by locomotives tailored to a specific job. The business was so good you had three or four RR's going to the same place alongside one another, each offering a unique service.

Sorry, not rose colored glasses but a look back at a totally different way if life.

PS: For a very biased view of an icon of freight movement I will never forget the NKP Berks roaring down the line with a long string of iced reefers carrying the "perishables".



lamontdc@adelphia.net

Superheater,
You bring to the table many great points and views. I appreciate your insight. I too read books, I have books I bought three years ago and have to to read for one reason or another.

Regarding support for causes; my money goes to the Leonard Peltier defense fund. I will probably search out those titles. Here's some for you that I'm currently dividing my time between among others;

"American Holocaust-The Conquest Of The New World"
David Standard

"American Indian Holocaust And Survival-A Population History Since 1492"
Russell Thonton

"Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee"
Dee Brown

"Where White Men Fear To Tread"
Russell Means

None of us can change history, and we can debate topics such as this forever. I find it interesting. But the world as we know it would not be in the state that it is if it were not for history's events.

Personally I can't stand Columbus and the fact that we celebrate "Columbus Day", it's boring. But my girlfriend who is from Bolivia points out, that if it were not for Columbus, likely we would never have met. She's right. Whether I agree or disagree with History, it happened. The very same things are happening now on some levels all around the world. It's human nature to conquer.

For the "crammed" in your head part, if you want to think so or not, you were crammed with it. The American/World History that is taught from grade school through high school is very distorted. What you take from it is up to you when you left the classroom. Only until college or study own your own do you really figure out what has happened.

Speaking for the "Super Chief" and things like it, think back to those fabulous old John Wayne movies, out in the big untamed wild west. Fighting those bad-bad indians who were wild and trying to kill all white men. I mean really, did those movies help the stereo types that some Americans in general have toward American Indians?

But that was then, this is now. I think as a culture, Americans have come far, but we still have far to go.

P.S.- I read in the paper the other day in Cairo, that a woman supposed to be buying fruits and such for the upcoming Islamic holiday refused her husband's request and burnt their apartment down. Change, or small revolutions if you will, are starting to pop up more frequently in the Middle East.

Interesting...

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

> Jeff:
The whole point of studying history ... not the canned pap stuffed into us in school ... is so we don't make the same mistakes twice. Starting from Cro-magnon vs Neanderthal and going forward we have a lot to answer for and a lot to correct, but we are learning.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Your post requires a response-I'll bet a lot of folks here are chuckling about your assertion that college teaches you whats going on-and I say that as somebody with two degrees. At this point, thev conversion is off-track, I'll send me response off-line.

superheater@beer.com

Not sure about "nationwide appeal" BUT IMO the train(s) that contributed the MOST to making America great was probably the local peddlar...that humble pokey mixed consist behind a low wheeled consolidation.

But I'm sure there are people who know more than me about it.

You've got mail. And one more thing, degrees have absolutely nothing to do with a person's knowledge.

Jeff Lisowski
West Chester, Pa

unfunkyufo76@hotmail.com

Ditto. But you were the one that said you don't know whats going on until you attend college.

> Jeff Lisowski
> West Chester, Pa


superheater@beer.com

How many general public people have ever heard of the Lakawana? Not many I'm VERY sure.

IMO, "The American Train" would be a Union Pacific Refer train.

Union Pacific because of the Transcontinental Line, a steam locomotive that's never been retired, experimental turbines, "DD" series, Big Boys, Domeliners, Ronald Reagan, a name that endures to this day unlike ANY other class 1 line, first in the world "trackage rights" agreement (with NP), and a logo that has had very little change from the begining. The UP also ended it's trains with red cabooses for a good period of time.

A Refer train because the need to expidite the goods, the goods created by the American farmer to be eaten by the American family. The refer train was also one of the early "hot shot/ unit trains" of its day. Actually, the refer buisiness is still very important to todays railroads.

Smokebox

"orhf dot org"

To date talley (as promised):
Super Chief 29%
20th Century Limited 24%
American Freedom Train 13%
City of New Orleans 5%
American Orient Express 3%
Empire Builder 3%
Broadway 3%
California Zephyr 3%
Laurentian 3%
Montrealer 3%
Adirondack 3%
Sunset Limited 3%
Amtrak Southwest Chief 3%
Texas Chief 3%
The Eagle 3%
Hank

hankmorris@earthlink.net

I'd like to thank Superheater and Jeff for taking this one offine. I commend their attitude--when a discussion takes a turn away from the subject of this board and the posters have views they still want to exchange, please take advantage of the opportunity to continue the conversation directly via email. Your mdoerator thanks you.

eledbetter@rypn.org

ALL of the responses here have been tied to what the writer has experienced. If you (or someone you care or cared about) were amoung the Armed Service men and women that came home from the war on a train then that is the "American Train". If you were amoung the people that traveled for vacation on a train then maybe the great Transcontinentals would be your choice. If your job is presently tied to some freight system then that would be your choice.

I know people that utterly hate trains in any form (idiots they are!). No amount of "romanticism" of the rails will change their mind. I know people that HATE steam engines of any kind ("Ruined Mom's wash on Monday's!") and those that HATE Diesels ("Dad ran a steamer and that was a "Man's" work!") or just hate trains in general ("Man! I had to wait 5 minutes for that dingdong slow freight to get outta my way!")

The "America's Train" is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

But in any case... it needs to be preserved in some manner so that those that come after will know what all the hub-bub has been about.
Preserve that "daing'd ol' steam engine" and that "acursed DIEsel", and that rickedy old passenger car and that stainless steel streamliner and that flat car and the coal car and the boxcar and the reefer and the station and the loading platform and the handtruck and lantern and put them in a place where the future can see the past to see how they got to where they are now.

Maybe when they get old and get teary-eyed over the demise of the "PC" or the "DVD" they will understand why we argue over preservation of a railroad artifact.

Semper Vaporo,
Charles T. McCullough