Hi everyone. Recently some friends and I went to a railroadiana show. I bought a builder's plate, and one of friends bought two. This got me thinking; is there a way to verify the locomotive a particular plate came off of, via the construction number on the plate? I'm supposing I would have to contact an organization that has some railroad archives, or either Lima, BLW, or ALCO archives. I have a builder's plate from an EMD diesel, and I'm aware of at least one website that lists the serials of EMD diesels, so I was able to track down the locomotive this was off of. However, I think with a plate off of a steamer it would be considerably tougher. Any suggestions? Seth

P.S. In regard to the "Who's here" post some lines down, I volunteer with the Wilmington & Western Railroad in Wilmington, Delaware.


Wilmington & Western Railroad
sethajackson@hotmail.com

The link provides a nice database to work through.
If you ever find the plates for GE13031, let me know.

PS: as far as "who's here", I keep Mr. Siffert in trouble at various locations.

http://www.railspot.com/index.html
lamontdc@adelphia.net

Aha! Here's a rather sore subject! The organization I belong to has 10 locomotives, and not a builder's plate for any one of them! I often wonder where they are. Are they in the hands of individuals, one at a time, or is there some weasel with boxes and boxes of them moldering away in his basement, only to be thrown out when it's time to settle his estate when he dies. Or, have they been "recycled", since they are made of relatively high scrap value metal such as aluminum, stainless steel,or brass. I'm sure other organizations preserving locomotives have the same need. I'd like to propose a national listing, and the hope that the owners (thieves and otherwise) would send them to the appropriate owners. Of course, the cynical side of me tells me that once these people know that their plates are wanted/needed, they'll hoard them even more, or offer them at an atrocious ransom. Can we get the listing going?

Schwartzsj@juno.com

The Railway & Locomotive Historical Society has available for sale the builder's lists of most of the major builder's. You can contact them for the current cost per page. Most of the information is accurate, but I have found some errors over the years. I have tried to build up a library of books that contain rosters with serial numbers. I do a lot of research for other collectors. I have collected plates since 1963. I would guess that you were at the show in Gaithersburg, Maryland last weekend. If I can help with any info, please email me and I will see what I can find. I have most steam records as well as diesel. As I side note, I have found some plates for locomotive owners over the years. Some "collectors" will steal anything and it gives all legitimate collectors and historians a bad name. Years ago employees would never think of stealing items from their employer. This does not hold true today when you see brand new plates at the RR shows and I have been offered brand new plates by employees.



steamfan@crusoe.net

As a collector, what do you do with builder's plates in your possession that are documented as having been removed from a preserved steam or diesel locomotive in a museum collection--either before the engine came into museum hands or after? Are any attempts made to return the plates (either through sale, trade or donation) to the locomotive owners? Or are copies made? Ethically it would seem like the most prudent course of action.

> The Railway & Locomotive Historical
> Society has available for sale the builder's
> lists of most of the major builder's. You
> can contact them for the current cost per
> page. Most of the information is accurate,
> but I have found some errors over the years.
> I have tried to build up a library of books
> that contain rosters with serial numbers. I
> do a lot of research for other collectors. I
> have collected plates since 1963. I would
> guess that you were at the show in
> Gaithersburg, Maryland last weekend. If I
> can help with any info, please email me and
> I will see what I can find. I have most
> steam records as well as diesel. As I side
> note, I have found some plates for
> locomotive owners over the years. Some
> "collectors" will steal anything
> and it gives all legitimate collectors and
> historians a bad name. Years ago employees
> would never think of stealing items from
> their employer. This does not hold true
> today when you see brand new plates at the
> RR shows and I have been offered brand new
> plates by employees.

And, as a follow up, what constitutes "clear title" when acquiring any railroad artifacts? We all know that most railroad stuff was saved by the process of "dumpster diving" or employees taking home choice items that were destined for the trash. But legally isn't much of this stuff technically "stolen property"? Although it is unlikely that a historic railroad of the past would take a collector to court and sue for the return of such property, my understanding is that the collector would not have a leg to stand on if they could not produce a bill of sale or correspondence to the effect that clear transfer of title had taken place. With all kinds of ridiculous law suits coming to the fore these days, don't be surprised if railroadiana collectors some day become the targets of stolen property lawsuits. Don't laugh, it could happen folks.

> As a collector, what do you do with
> builder's plates in your possession that are
> documented as having been removed from a
> preserved steam or diesel locomotive in a
> museum collection--either before the engine
> came into museum hands or after? Are any
> attempts made to return the plates (either
> through sale, trade or donation) to the
> locomotive owners? Or are copies made?
> Ethically it would seem like the most
> prudent course of action.

Good points, Sam. I can relate two circumstances over the years where this has happened. I found an EMD GP30 plate that belonged to a locomotive owned by Dick Sanders. I gave Dick the plate back years ago and told him NOT to put it back on the locomotive. In a more recent case, we found a plate in Montana that belonged to a locomotive in a Pennsylvania museum. I tried to arrange a trade for an equal value plate but was rebuffed by the curator. I knew that they had a large number of plates with no connection to the museum theme. I simply wanted a fair trade of equal value to get the plate back where it belonged. I was told that they really did not care if they had the plate or not. Horror stories are well known of plates and other railroad items being sold - "out the back door" at Edaville years ago.


steamfan@crusoe.net

I only have personal knowledge of one specific museum-worthy plate that someone got, and that was the builder's plate off of one of the Milwaukee Road's FM H10-44's, which was actually liberated by a well-known name in railfan circles. When the locomotive was preserved, he sent the plate back to its rightful owner, the museum that acquired the loco.

I myself will admit to "liberating" items off of stored PRR electrics in the scrap line, with a verbal committment that if any of the locos in question were preserved, the items we liberated would go to the new owners. It truly burned up one friend of mine to send off the marker stencils from GG1 4873 when the loco was saved, only to see it head off to the scrapper later. And lest you berate me for theft, almost everything I liberated is still supposedly sitting in the cab of the 4859 in Harrisburg, donated to them for a cab interior restoration that will apparently never come.

In Britain, I can assure you that not all preserved locos are in possession of all their parts. Several of the original nameplates for preserved locos (such as the "Western" and "Deltic" diesels) have come to auction lately, setting record prices (£25,000 in the case of a Deltic nameplate in the last year). And the owner of LNER 4472 "Flying Scotsman" arguably the most famous steamer in the world next to "Thomas", set off a firestorm of controversy earlier this year by offering one of the original plates off 4472 for sale at an auction of his traction engines. Allegedly he set the reserve astronomically high and did it just to garner publicity for the auction, but shareholders in the newly-formed Flying Scotsman corporation threatened suit, claiming that by offering the plate for auction he had misrepresented the completeness of the loco in which they had purchased shares.

lner4472@bcpl.net

> And, as a follow up, what constitutes
> "clear title" when acquiring any
> railroad artifacts? We all know that most
> railroad stuff was saved by the process of
> "dumpster diving" or employees
> taking home choice items that were destined
> for the trash. But legally isn't much of
> this stuff technically "stolen
> property"?

Interesting questions. Many locomotive parts were "liberated" from an engine on railroad property, where it had been removed from the active roster pending disposal. RR employees had relatively easy access, removing parts for their own use, and often for sale to others. Either way, it was theft. However, the original owner (railroad company) which suffered the loss may no longer exist. Would the legal department at NS seriously pursue action against someone with a builders' plate from a Wabash loco? When the engine was finally sold to a scrap metal dealer or donated to a presevation group, it was probably transferred "as-is". If it was already at a scrap yard, railfans may have actually purchased parts from the owner - most likely for cash, with no bill of sale.

Unless hardware was clearly stolen after the engine was acquired by a preservation group, it all seems pretty murky.

tr2manz@frontiernet.net

Whoa, wait a minute now. All I wanted to know is how to track down the locomotive a plate might be from. Now I'm feeling guilty for trying to legitimately get into a hobby I find interesting. I PAID for my plate, and if it belongs to a preserved engine, I would give it back without expecting compensation.

Seth


Wilmington & Western Railroad
sethajackson@hotmail.com

Guys,

As a Curator, I would say that if I had a name plate off a preserved steam engine I would give it to the museum involved. There is no legal requirement to edo so. It just makes for a better display.

If it is from a park display (outside) they the plot thickens. Most likely the plate would walk in a short time; so a museum is still a better place. Remember though, no museum will guarentee that a given artifact will be displayed permanently.

You guys are lucky; my maritime museum does not have a single plate from any of our seven ships!
Well, there is one replica plate. Well, one down
sex to go!

Ted Miles



ted_miles@nps.gov

Seth,

Good man that's the way to do it!

Ted


ted_miles@nps.gov

> Whoa, wait a minute now. All I wanted to
> know is how to track down the locomotive a
> plate might be from. Now I'm feeling guilty
> for trying to legitimately get into a hobby
> I find interesting. I PAID for my plate, and
> if it belongs to a preserved engine, I would
> give it back without expecting compensation.

> Seth

I certainly would not feel guilty if I were you, you are doing a good thing. As far as GE13031's "tags", duplicates are available on the internet and the locomotive is there whether or not the plates are, no biggie!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

Naw, Ted's artifacts draw too much water to dock in a Fredian slip. :-)

eledbetter@rypn.org