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 Post subject: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:25 pm
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Why was the Garratt design never adopted in North America?

Wesley


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:45 am 

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Good question. Here's a sub-question, did any of the North American locomotive builders license the Garratt design from Beyer-Peacock?

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:56 am 

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What, if any, advantage did a Garrat have over a regular articulated, either simple or compound?

If you can't come up with a good answer for that, or if the answer is applicable to situations that weren't common here in North America, i.e. small gauge railways, then you'll know why they were never adopted here.


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:20 am 

Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:53 pm
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Location: Casa Grande, Arizona USA
wesp wrote:
Why was the Garratt design never adopted in North America?

Wesley


Many years of study regarding this question have led me to the following conclusions:

1. Pretty much all the Garratt's went to railroads in countries where the track was either lightly laid or contained a lot of curves or both and resources simply did not allow for the wholesale rebuilding of the railway to accommodate heavier and more rigid locomotives (yes there are exceptions to this observation)

2. The wealth and resources in North America as traffic increased simply allowed for heavier rail / bridges / locomotives.

3. Most of the Garratt's went to British colonies where Government level influence could be applied in the decision making process.

4. Even taking into account 1 and 3 above. In the end, only about 1700 Garratt's were built, a very small fraction of even the British locomotive builders output.

There is one prototype Garratt in North America. a 2 foot NG/G13 which was imported from South Africa in the 1970's and is currently being restored back to operating condition at a private site in Texas.

Today there are only three locations in the world where one can reliably find a prototype Garratt at work and only 1-3 with a Beyer-Peacock product.

1 The Welsh Highland Railway in the UK
2. The FCAF in Ushuaia, Argentina
3. The Hwange coal mine near Victoria Fall's Zimbabwe

TH


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:05 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
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Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Bobharbison wrote:
What, if any, advantage did a Garrat have over a regular articulated, either simple or compound?

If you can't come up with a good answer for that, or if the answer is applicable to situations that weren't common here in North America, i.e. small gauge railways, then you'll know why they were never adopted here.


The physical advantage of the design is that you can make a boiler as wide in diameter as the loading gauge will permit (none of those pesky driver axles interfering) and produce a boiler entirely capable of feeding two engines with one crew. This can be critical to a place using metre or 3' 6" gauge, but much less so for North American standard gauge or Russian/Spanish broad gauge. Nonetheless, "broad-gauge" Garratts showed up in Spain and Russia....

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garratt :

Quote:
The principal benefit of the Garratt design is that the boiler and firebox unit are slung between the two engine units. This frees the boiler and firebox from the size constraints imposed where they are placed over the frames and running gear, as in conventional designs and other articulated designs such as Mallets. Garratts can have a boiler with a greater diameter, which increases heating area and aids the production of steam. The boiler can also be shorter than other designs with the same heating area. In some loco designs, the boiler is so long almost no heating of the water occurs at the smokebox end of the boiler. A larger firebox promotes more efficient combustion of fuel and also increases the heat available to the boiler.[citation needed]

Garratts enjoy an advantage over the Mallet system, because of the geometry of the design. When swinging around curves the boiler and cab unit move inward like a bowstring in the bow of a curve and this reduces the centrifugal force that would overturn a normal locomotive and which in turn permits faster running. The Mallet's forward articulated unit tends to throw out as the loco rounds curves. While most Garratts were designed for freight or mixed traffic, there were a number of passenger Garratt classes. A Garratt holds the world speed record for an articulated locomotive.[citation needed]

Garratts have several advantages when used on light and narrow gauge railways. They are tank locomotives and can easily be run tender-first, thus eliminating the need for expensive turntables or wyes. They do not need to be run through to terminals, increasing operational flexibility. Because the engine units are separated by the boiler unit, the weight of the locomotive is split over the two units, and they can run over bridges or line sections that might not be able to support conventional or Mallet locomotives of similar weight.[citation needed]

While at the end of the steam locomotive era most conventional steam locomotives had reached their maximum in "critical dimensions", the Garratt still had some way to go, with larger driving wheels, larger boilers and greater output still achievable.


The major disadvantage of a Garratt (shared with all tank engines) is that the adhesive weight decreases as the water is used from the front tank and coal from the rear bunker. As the weight on the wheels decreases slipping occurs. To reduce wheelslip, a wagon containing water was attached behind the Garratt, and this practice also permitted the engine to operate over longer distances.[where?][citation needed] The weight of the water in the locomotive's tank and weight of coal in the bunker (necessary for the factor of adhesion) was predicted in advance, and this problem was not normally an operational issue.[citation needed]


To some extent, North America didn't suffer the constraints of loading gauge suffered by many foreign railroads. There's also no doubt a huge degree of "not invented here" xenophobia at work, combined with what were no doubt high licencing/patent fees that would have been imposed by Garratt or Beyer Peacock, though I have rattling around in the back of my head the idea that Baldwin at one point considered building some.

If anyone wants to thoroughly research the idea, there's a stack of Beyer Peacock Magazine in my basement awaiting shipment to South Africa......


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:27 pm 

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Location: Baltimore. MD
wilkinsd wrote:
Good question. Here's a sub-question, did any of the North American locomotive builders license the Garratt design from Beyer-Peacock?


Alco had the North American rights, and a few Alco ads for them appear in the Garratt web pages. I would imagine an Alco-Garratt in 3' gauge would look like a cross between an SAR NGG-16 and a Sumpter Valley 2-8-2.

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Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:02 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:31 pm
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I've always wondered if the DRG&W narrow gauge had continued to develop motive power beyond the 2-8-2 if a Garratt or something similar may have been a possibility. We'll never know, but it's fun to think about!


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:46 pm 

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In 2011, I was able to fulfill a bucket list item by riding behind a Garratt on the Welsh Highland Railway. They are wonderful machines.

Ira Schreiber
Aurora, CO


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:30 pm 
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What if the Pennsylvania Railroad's T-1 duplex had been a Garratt instead?


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:29 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm
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trolleyira wrote:
In 2011, I was able to fulfill a bucket list item by riding behind a Garratt on the Welsh Highland Railway. They are wonderful machines.

Ira Schreiber
Aurora, CO


Do they still over the "Guest Driver Package", and if so, does it include the Garratt? A quick google brings up a link, but the page isn't there, at least not at the moment.

That's on my bucket list in the "If you ever hit the lottery and can afford it..." category.


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:32 pm 

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All kidding aside, if PRR had made a Garratt out of two Pacific underframes, like a larger version of the Algerian locomotive, it would likely have been more successful.

Imagine running gear similar to 5399 or 3847, but with smaller cylinders and perhaps reduced stroke (driver assemblies and some balance concerns common to T1s?). Abbreviated tender (with coal in the front section transfer-feeding into the bunker, and water transfer-pumped to the front for tractive-effort control there).

Sure, it's relative overkill for a passenger locomotive. But it DID represent a 'modern take' on the traditional PRR "locomotive" for heavy trains -- doubleheaded K4s...


If I remember correctly (it has been a long time!) there is a file in the N&W archives that covers contemporary alternative forms of motive power, and the Garratt and 'Garratt-Mallet' designs are included there...

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:54 pm 
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rlsteam wrote:
What if the Pennsylvania Railroad's T-1 duplex had been a Garratt instead?
Image


If that had been the case, then the Pennsy would have been unique in that they would have been the only North American railroad (to my knowledge) with double-ended steam and electric locomotives.

But, alas, no Pennsy Garratts...oh, well...

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:54 pm 

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prr643 wrote:
I've always wondered if the DRG&W narrow gauge had continued to develop motive power beyond the 2-8-2 if a Garratt or something similar may have been a possibility. We'll never know, but it's fun to think about!


D&RGW was planning a 3 foot 2-8-8-2 but never happenned.

US never had the garratts but a builder or 2 did make them and sent abroad.

As for narrow gauge 2-8-8-2's that did happen built local but sent abroad.


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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:13 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:31 am
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Location: South Carolina
Bobharbison wrote:
What, if any, advantage did a Garrat have over a regular articulated, either simple or compound?

If you can't come up with a good answer for that, or if the answer is applicable to situations that weren't common here in North America, i.e. small gauge railways, then you'll know why they were never adopted here.


The question is answered in detail in Dusty Durrant's book "The Garratt Locomotive", but I'm too tired to dig it out right now, so I'll do the best I can from memory:

Compared to simple articulateds, Garratts had the following advantages:

1- The boiler and especially the firebox size was restricted only by the loading gauge as no driving or carrying wheels had to be below them. This allowed a large, deep firebox, giving ample volume without a combustion chamber (easier to build) and an ashpan of simple shape which could discharge directly downwards. The boiler was inherently short, and fat, the cheapest shape to build and the most efficient from a thermodynamic standpoint.

2- Garratts tracked better through curves. With a simple articulated, the front of the boiler was actually hanging to the outside of the curve. With a Garratt, the boiler was to the inside of the curve, like the string on a bow. This placed the weight where it countered the force trying to tip the locomotive over as it traversed the curve.

3- A Garratt could operate equally well in either direction, due to the "symmetrical" wheel arrangement (2-8-2+2-8-2, 4-6-2+2-6-4, etc.). This eliminated the need to turn the locomotive at the end of each run.

4- Related to item 1 above, the driving wheel size of a Garratt was unrestricted because the boiler was not located above the drivers.

These are just a few I can think of at this late hour; there are others. Of course there are some disadvantages too, but Garratts had a lot of potential for applications in the U.S.; it's a pity none were ever tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Regarding Garratts...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:15 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:12 am
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Location: North Wales and Australia.
One story I read talks of tests in South Africa. It was out of Durban up to Petermaritzburg.

They tested a Mallet agents an early Garratt. The Garratt won and so from then on was the favourite. The story I understand was that the Garratt came to late to the USA. The Mallet was already common and even by the late 1930's diesel was favourite so basically the best of the more modern Garratts came after the decision to go diesel had already been made thus the debate of going Garratt was never to take place. The reason for colonial countries to remain steam was due to local fuels and the links to the existing Byer Peacock company. Yes there are there technical points above which are highly valid but the economic reasoning over ruled the situation.

On another note I understand that 6029 is heading for completion in Australia and also the ASG is being worked on.

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