This year an east coast railway museum was fined by the EPA hundreds of thousands of dollars for contaminants cleanup of PCBs from the transformers of their GG-1. The word is out: if you own an old electric unit, m.u. cars or electric locomotives that have or had PCB-laden transformers, expect a follow-up from the feds. They are pursuing this program vigorously and expect a very costly price tag.

> This year an east coast railway museum was
> fined by the EPA hundreds of thousands of
> dollars for contaminants cleanup of PCBs
> from the transformers of their GG-1.

Can anyone cite number, chapter and verse, or is this just another rumor making the rounds?

lner4472@bcpl.net

Oh no! This is the real thing. For reasons of anominity this is as much as I can share right now.

> Can anyone cite number, chapter and verse,
> or is this just another rumor making the
> rounds?

Please donÂ’t waste our time with rumors and hearsay. Fines of hundreds of thousands of dollars, I don't think so. Anything done by the EPA is all public information, if a fine was levied it is not a secret.

Tom Gears



tom@forgottendelaware.com

Hello All:

First off, PCBs were regulated when the TSCA was passed by Congress in 1978. The regulations were aimed primarily at the electric utility industry. There was a timetable to identify and remove from service any equipment which utilized PCBs.

Unless you obtained electrical equipment prior to 1978, it is unlikely that it would contain PCBs.

In my experience, the EPA doesn't come and immediately levy fines. The fines and administrative penalties are assessed after a period of noncompliance by an organization. An administrative hearing is required to levy fines and penalties.
Screening for PCBs is not that expensive. The circumstances for screening would be if you have electrical equipment that predates the early 80's.

You think I'm kidding?! It is not a rumor. Wait and see. It is unfortunately going to be reality of our lititigious society.

> Hello All:

> First off, PCBs were regulated when the TSCA
> was passed by Congress in 1978. The
> regulations were aimed primarily at the
> electric utility industry. There was a
> timetable to identify and remove from
> service any equipment which utilized PCBs.

> Unless you obtained electrical equipment
> prior to 1978, it is unlikely that it would
> contain PCBs.

> In my experience, the EPA doesn't come and
> immediately levy fines. The fines and
> administrative penalties are assessed after
> a period of noncompliance by an
> organization. An administrative hearing is
> required to levy fines and penalties.
> Screening for PCBs is not that expensive.
> The circumstances for screening would be if
> you have electrical equipment that predates
> the early 80's.

Well,if this is true as reported, there are only a handful of museums on the east coast with these beasts.

So let's have at it.

Can anyone from the Railroad Museum of PA, the Harrisburg Transportation Center, URHS, Leatherstocking Chapter NRHS, Railroaders Museum in Altoona, Vriginia Transportation Museum, B&O Museum or CNY chapter NRHS elaborate?

These are the only museums or preservation groups with GG-1's on the east coast.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

I could report what I was told at the time GG1s were being preserved:

SUPPOSEDLY, all the transformers (the items with the PCBs) were yanked out of all the GG1s that went through Wilmington Shops on Amtrak's behalf. All the GG1s currently officially preserved came from Amtrak but two: 4800, which came from Conrail via direct purchase (and reportedly has transformers intact but with cracks in them that make them unusable) and 4859 (acquired by the Harrisburg NRHS by purchasing an Amtrak unit and trading it to the scrappers of Conrail G's).

Reportedly, the GG1 originally purchased by Historic Red Clay Valley, Inc. (Wilmington & Western), PRR 4917/Amtrak 4934, was retrieved with intact transformers, supposedly flushed to remove the PCB contamination. I have heard this from several sources around HRCV but never personally saw the transformers. This loco is now in the hands of the Leatherstocking NRHS, along with the Amtrak 4932 purchased from Steamtown. If these allegations are true, 4917/4934 remains as the only *potentially* operable GG1.

Left out of this discussion, simply because I know nothing about them, are the four ex-NJ Transit G's that were saved: 4873 at Whippany (which I think was eventually scrapped), 4877 (the PRR red one), 4879 (these two supposedly still held by NJ Transit/NJ Museum of Transportation), and 4882 (in Elkhart, Indiana in PC paint, last I recall).

In addition, we are conveniently forgetting a couple NYC electrics here and there, at least one CSS&SB Little Joe, the Virginian/N&W/NH/PC/CR electric at Roanoke (too new for PCBs?), the Montreal commuter electric at Delson, and (just to be obnoxiously thorough) a tiny boxcab electric in the B&O Museum.

lner4472@bcpl.net

> All the GG1s currently
> officially preserved came from Amtrak but
> two: 4800, which came from Conrail via
> direct purchase (and reportedly has
> transformers intact but with cracks in them
> that make them unusable)

4800 has, I beleive, an AIR cooled main transformer unlike the other production GG1s and so should have no issue with PCBs.

> 4859 (acquired
> by the Harrisburg NRHS by purchasing an
> Amtrak unit and trading it to the scrappers
> of Conrail G's).

RRMPA, I beleive, owns this unit though it is in Harrisburg.

> Reportedly, the GG1 originally purchased by
> Historic Red Clay Valley, Inc. (Wilmington
> & Western), PRR 4917/Amtrak 4934, was
> retrieved with intact transformers,
> supposedly flushed to remove the PCB
> contamination. I have heard this from
> several sources around HRCV but never
> personally saw the transformers. This loco
> is now in the hands of the Leatherstocking
> NRHS, along with the Amtrak 4932 purchased
> from Steamtown. If these allegations are
> true, 4917/4934 remains as the only
> *potentially* operable GG1.

I have heard the same, that 4917 has drained transformes installed. Have some info if I can find it on ATK 4932/PRR 4909 which is now partially back in PRR colors thanks to a private party.

> Left out of this discussion, simply because
> I know nothing about them, are the four
> ex-NJ Transit G's that were saved: 4873 at
> Whippany (which I think was eventually
> scrapped)

Believe this one was scrapped.

> 4877 (the PRR red one)

Belongs to URRHS and was last reported as on display at a Hoboken passenger station.

> 4879
> (these two supposedly still held by NJ
> Transit/NJ Museum of Transportation), and

Mystery GG1. Repored to be in storage in NJ, somewhere. URRHS personnel dodge the subject whenever they are questioned about it. Access by fans seems near impossible.

> 4882 (in Elkhart, Indiana in PC paint, last
> I recall).

Still in PC paint, I beleive.

Also
4876 at B&O, Baltimore, MD
4890 at NRRM, Green Bay, WI
4903 at AOS, Dalas, TX
4913 at ARRMM, Altoona, PA
4918 at MOT, St Louis, MO
4919 at VMT, Roanoke, VA
4927 at IRM, Union, IL
4933 at fairgrounds in Syracuse, NY
4935 at RRMPA, Strasburg, PA

> In addition, we are conveniently forgetting
> a couple NYC electrics here and there, at
> least one CSS&SB Little Joe,

Also the Milwaukee Little Joe in Montanna.

> the
> Virginian/N&W/NH/PC/CR electric at
> Roanoke (too new for PCBs?)

Also, another EL-C (E-33) somewhere in the Northeast/New England area. DC traction, I beleive, but likeley had a transformer of some sort.

> the Montreal
> commuter electric at Delson, and (just to be
> obnoxiously thorough) a tiny boxcab electric
> in the B&O Museum.

Did the DD1s have transformers? I don't think so.


The GG1 Homepage

ebtrr@spikesys.com

> I could report what I was told at the time
> GG1s were being preserved:

> SUPPOSEDLY, all the transformers (the items
> with the PCBs) were yanked out of all the
> GG1s that went through Wilmington Shops on
> Amtrak's behalf. All the GG1s currently
> officially preserved came from Amtrak but
> two: 4800, which came from Conrail via
> direct purchase (and reportedly has
> transformers intact but with cracks in them
> that make them unusable) and 4859 (acquired
> by the Harrisburg NRHS by purchasing an
> Amtrak unit and trading it to the scrappers
> of Conrail G's).

> Reportedly, the GG1 originally purchased by
> Historic Red Clay Valley, Inc. (Wilmington
> & Western), PRR 4917/Amtrak 4934, was
> retrieved with intact transformers,
> supposedly flushed to remove the PCB
> contamination. I have heard this from
> several sources around HRCV but never
> personally saw the transformers. This loco
> is now in the hands of the Leatherstocking
> NRHS, along with the Amtrak 4932 purchased
> from Steamtown. If these allegations are
> true, 4917/4934 remains as the only
> *potentially* operable GG1.

> Left out of this discussion, simply because
> I know nothing about them, are the four
> ex-NJ Transit G's that were saved: 4873 at
> Whippany (which I think was eventually
> scrapped), 4877 (the PRR red one), 4879
> (these two supposedly still held by NJ
> Transit/NJ Museum of Transportation), and
> 4882 (in Elkhart, Indiana in PC paint, last
> I recall).

> In addition, we are conveniently forgetting
> a couple NYC electrics here and there, at
> least one CSS&SB Little Joe, the
> Virginian/N&W/NH/PC/CR electric at
> Roanoke (too new for PCBs?), the Montreal
> commuter electric at Delson, and (just to be
> obnoxiously thorough) a tiny boxcab electric
> in the B&O Museum.

For a list of preserved GG1's, here's the link.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/

Regarding Virginian (later New Haven, Conrail) EL-C rectifier locomotives, I believe that they did indeed have PCB-laden transformers. The EL-C at the Railroad Museum of New England, CR #4601 (ex-VGN #131, N&W #231, NH #300), has a gaping hole behind the cab where the transformer was removed - along with the hood side panels.

However, locomotives like the South Shore and Milwaukee Road "Little Joe" electrics, as well as the small boxcab at B&ORRM, were not fitted with transformers because the power distribution system was via DC, not AC. The purpose of a GG1's transformer is to step down the AC current to a lower voltage. Since the Milwaukee Road and South Shore both used high-voltage DC power distribution systems, their locomotives didn't need transformers.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars
fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

so the MILW, DL&W, CSS&SB, NYC, CNR etc. electrics are not involved.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

Mitch,

You are hiding your identity and telling big stories. My BS detector is going beep beep beep.

Tom Gears
Not hiding my identity

Forgotten Delaware
tom@forgottendelaware.com